[HWYSTR455]

Well, just like MAST, Butler is the baseline for starting to shop.

Price an IA2 or MR block, add machine work, and shop for a rotating assembly. That's a lot cheaper than 35k.

.

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by NeighborsComplaint

In some cases, that isn't necessarily a bad thing. For a car you can drive anywhere, every day, it's a pretty logical choice over a tempermental antique even when the antique is crutched with a throttle-body injection system. In this day and age, the fewer aftermarket parts, the better the reliability and lower probability of being stranded with no replacement part.

Don't get me wrong, I still love my old school 455 but if I were building a car to drive every day without limitations, the LS would be something I would consider.

Lots of cool cars come with an LS engine and a warranty. Seems a bit ignorant to want a modern day engine in a car with antiquated brakes, suspension, interior, climate control, sound system etc..... JMO

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

I looked at it hard at one time too, and came to the same conclusion. You will get more power, and cheaper, going the traditional Pontiac power route. So I did, and proved it.

To get comparable power from the LS costs money. And don't try to sell me 'you can grab a truck LS for $xxx and do it cheap'. Seen too many failures by those taking that route.


.

Most LS truck engines found it salvage yards are in salvage yards due to mileage or other damage rending the host vehicle uneconomical to return to service. Let me give an example: my ‘03 Silverado has the 4.3 Vortec in it. Just to procure a serviceable 4.8/5.3 iron block core and all of the associated mounts and accessories is more expensive than building a 4.3 Vortec with an 8 psi turbo system on it. Think about this: ‘03 Silverados came from the factory with 4.8/5.3 LS engines installed in them. I imagine the costs associated with replacing a Pontiac V-8 with a LS would be comparable to replacing a 4.3 Vortec( Gen 1 SBC based) with an LS.

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by Gach

You Ready price out Butler 800 hp pump gas Motor, he has listed on his site. For a friend… Ready $35,000.00. A 632 Shafferoff pump gas 1050 hp. $23,000.00. Which way you think he’s going.

If you go to the right shop 23k will get you a pump gas Pontiac that will eat up that Schafferoff 632. You have to know where to shop and how to get the job done.... 35k is taking advantage of folks who's primary skill is writing checks.

[MatthewKlein]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

MAST is kind of a baseline of reliable performance LS 'crate' power, at least a starting point for shopping.

https://www.mastmotorsports.com/coll.../crate-engines

Pick one, add up the options, tell me what you come up with. And then tell me how much power you can make with even half the money using a Pontiac build.


.

LS engines have a place in the hobby.

Accessories and motor mounts are another $1335.00 to $1985.00 on the couple LS engines I checked at that link. It also was not clear what ECU was included or not included. Not to mention the tuning/wiring everything. Changing the engine family is a can of worms with every nickle and dime it will take to be done properly.

In my experience HEI/Quadrajet combo is tough to beat for reliability. Doesn't take much to have a spare distributor if I'm going on a trip longer than an hour one way.

[Gach]

Originally Posted by PAUL K

If you go to the right shop 23k will get you a pump gas Pontiac that will eat up that Schafferoff 632. You have to know where to shop and how to get the job done.... 35k is taking advantage of folks who's primary skill is writing checks.

Oh I agree 100%.

[JSchmitz]

Originally Posted by PAUL K

If you go to the right shop 23k will get you a pump gas Pontiac that will eat up that Schafferoff 632. You have to know where to shop and how to get the job done.... 35k is taking advantage of folks who's primary skill is writing checks.

Proof of this please...Highly doubtful...

[Gach]

I’ve pricing all the stuff out, see if I could put a page together for him cheaper. The IA aluminum block off Alpontiac site is closer to $7420.00 with all stuff I’d have done, 55 mm cam tunnel, bushed lifter bores. Think you get the picture.

The Iron block starts off at $3995.00 add another $900.00 now your up to $4895.00. Then your talking having cam bearing’s install, hopefully only needs to be honed for piston fit. Your talking a minimum of $6000.00 grand. Last one I did they charged $350.00 because is was more the the average hone job, to fit the pistons. Then add delivery charge on top of all that. Plus sales tax.

I mean couple of things I could eliminate, don’t need 55 mm cam tunnel. Or have lifter bores bushed. Thats $900.00 savings. Your still talking $5000.00 for block by time your done. I’ll price it all out and let you know.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by NeighborsComplaint

Real world car made to be driven and can still say it's a Pontiac.

Doc says "Take 2 of these and a shot of LS and call me in the morning."

Most lame thing ever. Was never a real GTO.
Someone in my family bought a 2004. Drove it to my house, since I am the Pontiac guy to show it off. Waled outside, told them it sucked and was not a real GTO. They left.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by PAUL K

If you go to the right shop 23k will get you a pump gas Pontiac that will eat up that Schafferoff 632. You have to know where to shop and how to get the job done.... 35k is taking advantage of folks who's primary skill is writing checks.

If anyone thinks they need 35K to make a 800 HP Pontiac they need their head examined.
Yup, check writers.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by NeighborsComplaint

... and for someone who doesn't have the wherewithal to build his own Pontiac, how much is a 400-500hp Pontiac crate motor going for these days?

These are RTA kits: https://butlerperformance.com/c-1459...lder-kits.html

Don't forget to add a (modest) amount for assembly and freight.

500 reliable HP out of a 455 is easy as falling out of a tree.
I did it with 9-1 and iron heads. Just need simple stuff.
In fact, a 9-1 500-550 HP 455 is better and cheaper than a BBC.
We can do it with iron heads, iron crank and low RPM and they last forever.
Every one of the Chevy guys I raced against from 95-20019 had at least 3 engines during that time. 11- 10 sec cars.
I had one engine.

[Sirrotica]

I bought a new 2005 GTO, only new car I ever owned, so I'm very familiar with the LS engines. For years I owned and raced Pontiacs with Stratostreak engine, and did very well with them. While I like the LS, and it has only needed a water pump, and spark plugs in 145,000 miles, I still prefer the old Stratosteak engines for my own cars.

Case in point, my 84 GP came with a 3.8 buick V6, I could go either way when I re powered it for a street car. It will have a 455 Stratostreak engine in it.

I like those engines so well, I designed, and sold T shirts to commemorate the Pontiac designed engine. I still have a few left that I wear all the time. I just looked down, and I'm wearing one now.......LOL

[HWYSTR455]

KRE block - 3600
rotating kit - 2650
Balanced - 220
Misc stuff to finish - @2500
Machine work - varies
base cost - @8970 + machine work

Doesn't cost 13k for machine work for a short block.

Add heads - @3k

And this is a 535-540 aluminum head aftermarket iron block base forged internals build. Have a block and save 3600.

Still say you can do that for under 15k, especially if you already have some parts.

Spotts for a while there was offering AI2 short blocks for 6500.

This 'discussion' should really be it's own thread, but think there has already been many.

If you have a little time, and put forth some effort, you can find deals on parts, saving you more.

For that matter, if you're doing a build on a factory block it's not much difference. AND, LS parts cost much more than Pontiac parts, regardless of what one thinks. It ain't a SBC or BBC.

The LS reliability factor is actually LOWER than a conventional build, since it's much more complicated, and has many complexities that can break/fail. A 'conventional' old-school build with today's parts can be just if not more reliable when executed properly. That too I've proved over time on multiple occasions, not for anyone else, proved it to myself.


.

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by JSchmitz

Proof of this please...Highly doubtful...

Here you go


https://fb.watch/lc3Hdi8lP5/

Total investment in this engine was considerably less than 23k. It was built pre-current elected top guy though.... Other posts show dollar amounts for current builds (which leave a lot of room for options before you get to 23k).... The owner of the GTO thought he went as far as he could go with his Butler built combination and was getting quotes for a LS build. That's when I reached out to him, he never looked back.

Just finished a Hi-port race gas build which is faster than this car.... Still less than 23k invested in that engine.

[NeighborsComplaint]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

Most lame thing ever. Was never a real GTO.
Someone in my family bought a 2004. Drove it to my house, since I am the Pontiac guy to show it off. Waled outside, told them it sucked and was not a real GTO. They left.

I'd like to think you only imagined doing that because I assume you are an adult. You were expecting Pontiac to reissue a stacked headlight, carbureted car, with an outdated engine and a leaking rear main seal meeting your definition of a GTO maybe? Those "updated GTO's were great cars and all about balance ... creature comfort, performance and handling. The GTO was named after the greatest grand touring car ever made wasn't it? Did the classic GTO's live up to their name? Ask any Ferrari officinado. I think Pontiac actually built a car (well Monaro did) which "reimagined" the GTO of old that actually lived up to the name and modern car expectations, not the street racing legend of the earlier cars. A different car for a different time.

I guess it all depends on one's definition of a street car but the hobby in reality, boils down to driving rolling anachronisms better suited to the period they were originally created in. The level to which we improve these anachronisms through modernization (disc brakes, suspension and steering upgrades, creature comforts like later model or aftermarket seats, fuel injection or modern engine transplantation) the closer we come to achieving the balance a street driven car should achieve.

[Gach]

Let me back up here on Butler quote, he’s asking for a Carb to pan which of course Includes flex plate and harmonic balancer…and Dyno. The qoute was between $32-35,000.00. Ok lets say $32,000.00 ready to pick up or be delivered. With dyno sheet. So what your saying id Butler making $10.000.00 on the deal.

Ok show me or give a number of a builder that can do the whole deal for $23,000.00. And guarantee 800 hp on 93 octane. I’m sure he’ll jump all over it.

By the way that $3600.00 KRE block is no longer available until the fine a new foundry.

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by PAUL K

Here you go


https://fb.watch/lc3Hdi8lP5/

Total investment in this engine was considerably less than 23k. It was built pre-current elected top guy though.... Other posts show dollar amounts for current builds (which leave a lot of room for options before you get to 23k).... The owner of the GTO thought he went as far as he could go with his Butler built combination and was getting quotes for a LS build. That's when I reached out to him, he never looked back.

Just finished a Hi-port race gas build which is faster than this car.... Still less than 23k invested in that engine.

5.24 on the eighth is hauling the mail!

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by NeighborsComplaint

I'd like to think you only imagined doing that because I assume you are an adult. You were expecting Pontiac to reissue a stacked headlight, carbureted car, with an outdated engine and a leaking rear main seal meeting your definition of a GTO maybe? Those "updated GTO's were great cars and all about balance ... creature comfort, performance and handling. The GTO was named after the greatest grand touring car ever made wasn't it? Did the classic GTO's live up to their name? Ask any Ferrari officinado. I think Pontiac actually built a car (well Monaro did) which "reimagined" the GTO of old that actually lived up to the name and modern car expectations, not the street racing legend of the earlier cars. A different car for a different time.

I guess it all depends on one's definition of a street car but the hobby in reality, boils down to driving rolling anachronisms better suited to the period they were originally created in. The level to which we improve these anachronisms through modernization (disc brakes, suspension and steering upgrades, creature comforts like later model or aftermarket seats, fuel injection or modern engine transplantation) the closer we come to achieving the balance a street driven car should achieve.

I do not lie, that happened.
Just like the guy at the track who showed up years ago with a beautiful 68 GTO.. Hood was down so the first thing I did was walk up and drop to the ground and look under the car. The fellow who I had never met simply said "yes, it still has a Pontiac in it".
We are friends till this day. That is how I am, hard core.
Its about THE ENGINE. The only difference between a Camero and a Firebird, a Chevelle and a GTO is the trim, badges and THE ENGINE. For all intents and purposes they are the same car except for the engine.
If you knew anything about GM politics back in the day you would know that it was Chevrolet who snuffed out all the deigns of our beloved Pontiac engine that would put them in 2nd place on the street. And who cares if PMD had to stuff Olds engines, Chevy engines in their cars the 70s when they were forced to kill their engine. They were never real Pontiacs anyway, not one of them.
And I could not care less if GM Powertrain made the LS and PMD in their last dying days tried to make a buck on the non discerning Pontiac fans and made that joke of a GTO. It never was one. What it was, a money grab and just another "who cares car, worn out look bar of soap car". You can see a real GTO a mile away.
You want to turn you old Pontiac into a who cares car, stuff a LS into her and act like you have done something. Puff up your chest with your checkbook when all you did was show the world you are not good enough to build your own awesome, reliable real Pontiac engine for your real Pontiac car.
And I think the same thing about all these Deltas who get a 1969 Cuda and "modernize it" with a new 700HP Hemi. Same thing about Chevy guys who shove a LS in a 66 SS Chevelle. Its so weak. That guy ran 12s and I laughed at him to his face at the track.
You first paragraph, wow. No I never thought PMD should have made a caurborated GTO with stacked headlights. Those only came one year, 65 anyway ? It was never going to happen, a real GTO. Tooling gone, no blocks. I mean, if it was based on the Monte Carlo with a RAV block, tuned port intake ect, that would have been more like it. Pie in the sky so let the GTO name be.

Any real true blue Pontiac fan is a Last Act of Defiance kind of guy. We fight a uphill battle and take it on.
You can be one of us, or one of them. Not both.

[64speed]

Not even gonna pay 23k. The first one that I blew up (as I’m totally fault) only cost me 12k

[geeteeohguy]

Originally Posted by NeighborsComplaint

In some cases, that isn't necessarily a bad thing. For a car you can drive anywhere, every day, it's a pretty logical choice over a tempermental antique even when the antique is crutched with a throttle-body injection system. In this day and age, the fewer aftermarket parts, the better the reliability and lower probability of being stranded with no replacement part.

Don't get me wrong, I still love my old school 455 but if I were building a car to drive every day without limitations, the LS would be something I would consider.

Hmmm. Just got back from a 2,715 mile road trip out to Colorado in my stock '67 GTO with born with engine, crank, rods, carb, and points distributor. I rebuilt it in 1988 about 85,000 miles ago. Car is nosing in on 260,000 miles. We averaged 20.6 mpg at a steady 75 mph and used 1/2 quart of oil the entire trip. And surprisingly, had no drivability issues at 8400 feet elevation. Car did not miss a beat. And I've been driving it for the past 40 years with no down time. People that think old tech is not usable or reliable are mis-informed. I even used to commute to work in town in my 103 year old, stock Ford T. Maintained, kept up, repaired as needed when needed, and driven within design parameters, old cars can be dead reliable.