[GTOGEORGE]

A little FYI............KRE incoming out with a NEW Billet block (GEN 3).


GTO George

[pont406]

Originally Posted by mgarblik

The 481X and Hemi don't look anything like a modern hemi, an old school hemi, or BBC IMO. I am sure some of the best features of many different engines finds it's way into the design, but they look like unique, purpose built, billet drag racing engines to me. A long, long way from any production engine. When we raced the Boss Bird, most of the well funded teams we ran against had billet blocks and heads, Alan Johnson, Brad Anderson Hemi's, mostly. Their biggest advantage against our production based Pontiac engine was ease of at the track parts replacement. The deep block offered easy access to all the main bearings for replacement. The Pontiac valley cover with it's two fasteners was always a concern to seal. These billet engines are designed for service. We could run right with them though, including our #1 qualifying spot at the NHRA Hot Rod Reunion. Here is a link to some information on the hemi and 481X from Proline. Looks like a used hemi is about 75K and a used 481X around 60K. Bring your checkbook.

https://www.prolineracing.net/produc...stage-4-engine


To try and answer your parameter questions a little better, the 481X uses a BBC bore center, not sure about the hemi. Here is a little more info from another source on the 481X .




" Running a high horsepower mill on an engine dyno is an abusive task for any dynamometer, and every dyno has a limit to how much torque and horsepower it is capable of keeping loaded. So as a means to preserve their high dollar investment, when most engine builders connect a freshly assembled 3,000 horsepower mill to the engine dyno — prior to shipping it out to the customer — the engine is generally tested at a fairly conservative power output which is often nowhere close to its peak potential, or even near the same level that the customer will be pushing it to in many cases.

To better stress-test their engines at a higher horsepower, to be fair to the customer, Steve Morris resorted to designing and building his shop’s engine dynamometer himself. While Steve states that this specific 525ci 481X engine is capable of holding itself together at 90 psi, not even the SME dyno would survive a max power pull with this engine. So this 481X was instead tested to between 40 and 50 psi of boost, which is still much higher than most dyno cell operators would dare to go.

The Build
481X Billet Block Pistons

AJPE’s billet 481X engine block and SME’s custom spec Diamond pistons.

As stated earlier, AJPE’s 481X engine platform is a hybrid between the big-block Chevy and Hemi architecture. It retains the big-block’s 4.84-inch bore spacing, but utilizes mostly Hemi patterned auxiliary components. And AJPE teasingly calls this combination the “Anti-Hemi.”

Additionally, many of the parts used in this all-billet build are designed in-house by the team at Steve Morris Engines. Including the custom SME designed billet intake manifold, 90mm twin throttle body setup with a tight radius “Ram’s Horn” intake elbow (for better clearance), SME valve covers, front motor plate, balancer, crank trigger pickup, and cam sync design!

The top end includes AJPE’s lightest “stage four” 6061-T651 billet cylinder heads, weighing just 36.6 pounds each! The heads also feature 73cc combustion chambers, 50 degree valve seat angles, Trend 1/2-inch intake and 9/16-inch exhaust pushrods, 0.937-inch Jesel lifters, and a custom grind SME camshaft to time the 2.450-inch intake and 1.920-inch exhaust valve events.
Steve Morris Engines - 481X Billet Block

AJPE’s billet 481X engine and “stage 4” cylinder heads, with a custom SME billet intake manifold.

Internal lubrication is handled by a five-stage Peterson dry sump oiling system, and fueling is accomplished using an Aeromotive front mount fuel pump feeding a set of Atomizer injectors — which are both powered through a single SME belt drive assembly.

Boost pressure is forced through the 481X using two Pro Mod-spec 102mm Precision turbochargers, while boost control is managed through a pair of Turbosmart wastegates and blowoff valves. But Steve says they will most likely be downsizing the turbos to better suit Tuttle’s needs before sending it out to him.

Holding all of that boost within the cylinders is achieved through the use of SME’s custom spec Diamond pistons, while a set of MGP connecting rods handle the torsional and tensile forces, and a 4.150-inch billet Bryant crankshaft keeps it all in rotation. And engine management for this project is controlled through a FuelTech FT600 EFI system, and Steve was just recently trained by FuelTech’s own Luis De Leon when he paid the SME shop a visit.
Steve Morris (left) and Luis De Leon (right)"

Thanks Mike!

[Gary H]

Originally Posted by GTOGEORGE

A little FYI............KRE incoming out with a NEW Billet block (GEN 3).


GTO George

When you say (Gen 3), what do you mean? Is this the third version? Is it standard Pontiac bore spacing?

[Elarson]

Originally Posted by GTOGEORGE

It is the highest hp Pontiac out there……except maybe the boss birds engine!



GTO George

Boss Bird engine is somewhere north of 3000 hp but no dyno results to brag about.
On the other hand, it's the only Pontiac engine to break the 250 mph barrier so it must be making some steam.

FWIW,
Eric

[GTOGEORGE]

Originally Posted by Gary H

When you say (Gen 3), what do you mean? Is this the third version? Is it standard Pontiac bore spacing?

I don’t know a lot about it, I saw them post about it on Facebook. It does/will have a stock Pontiac bore space and a lot of other improvements!
KRE always upping their game!

GTO George

[Stan Weiss]

My understanding is that the 481X uses standard BBC bore spacing.

Stan

[bluegoat65]

Being we are bore limited, has anyone ever used the tall deck AP blocks in a forced induction combo for more swept volume? I don t know if the guys even produce them anymore. I always figured that was our way to overcome the bore issue. Weren t they like an eleven inch deck height.

[opeliac]

With billet blocks, heads, and cranks...WHY are they staying with stock bore spacing? Stock bore spacing limits valve, and piston, sizes...Stretch the damn things and lets rock.

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by opeliac

With billet blocks, heads, and cranks...WHY are they staying with stock bore spacing? Stock bore spacing limits valve, and piston, sizes...Stretch the damn things and lets rock.

A few things to ponder here.

Anyone that thinks by 2022 that Pontiac wouldn't have changed the architecture of the Stratostreak engine is living under a rock. If the division was still around, that engine would have long been abandoned. Even if corporate engines had never come about, (LS series), that engine was doomed by the corporation for replacement.

Pontiac had already engineered an 427 OHC modular engine, and showed the models of it in 1970 that were in Hot Rod magazine. That design was refined by ford, and made into a real working engine.

IMO, stretching the bore centers (which chevy has already done on their BBC) isn't a mortal sin. But then the OEM based stuff isn't going to fit, so you're faced with a completely new engine configuration.

So if you're going for a new engine, Youman probably thought he would buy something that was purpose designed. He had already spent probably twice the amount on an OEM design from early 1950s and still wasn't very competitive in the classes he chose to compete in. Even twin turbos, with some of the best engineered parts available, still couldn't make him competitive in the higher classes. I believe he spent enough of his own money to figure out that it wasn't going to happen, and IMO, he is about as dedicated as anyone that is reading this. There aren't any OEM designs competing in that class that place in the top 3 consistently.

"A man has to know his limitations" comes to mind.

I still don't think a OEM stretched bore center is going to make it in that class, so if someone made the new parts for a long block configuration, would they ever live long enough to see a return on their investment? You have to have customers to get your money back.

Maybe if, someone had the blueprints for the later OHC design, modular engine, and made one of those in billet they'd be staying at least with a factory design that Pontiac had come up with to satisfy their brand loyalty, and maybe have some customers outside of Pontiac fans. But you'd have a huge expense to shoulder in the development stage to get the design competitive, to then build a customer base. Lots of dark areas that would have to be bridged in order to build a customer base for a completely new engine.

Pontiac Jack has done this on a small scale making the "one-off" OHC head for his 4 cylinder Pontiac based lakester. He has had a few setbacks getting it to a stage where he can race, and not have to return home to refine his design further. Watching his work as it progresses is just the tip of the iceberg for a completely new design V8 race engine, that would be based on the modular V8 from the late 60s, early 70s. Jack had the block to start with, so his design is comes from splitting a existing V8 factory aluminum block into a 4 cylinder configuration, and designing an OHC head from scratch. Still a challenging feat, that not many could pull off.

Just saying, " I wish we had ", doesn't pay the bills for the manufacturer.

[opeliac]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

A few things to ponder here.

Anyone that thinks by 2022 that Pontiac wouldn't have changed the architecture of the Stratostreak engine is living under a rock. If the division was still around, that engine would have long been abandoned. Even if corporate engines had never come about, (LS series), that engine was doomed by the corporation for replacement.

Pontiac had already engineered an 427 OHC modular engine, and showed the models of it in 1970 that were in Hot Rod magazine. That design was refined by ford, and made into a real working engine.

IMO, stretching the bore centers (which chevy has already done on their BBC) isn't a mortal sin. But then the OEM based stuff isn't going to fit, so you're faced with a completely new engine configuration.

So if you're going for a new engine, Youman probably thought he would buy something that was purpose designed. He had already spent probably twice the amount on an OEM design from early 1950s and still wasn't very competitive in the classes he chose to compete in. Even twin turbos, with some of the best engineered parts available, still couldn't make him competitive in the higher classes. I believe he spent enough of his own money to figure out that it wasn't going to happen, and IMO, he is about as dedicated as anyone that is reading this. There aren't any OEM designs competing in that class that place in the top 3 consistently.

"A man has to know his limitations" comes to mind.

I still don't think a OEM stretched bore center is going to make it in that class, so if someone made the new parts for a long block configuration, would they ever live long enough to see a return on their investment? You have to have customers to get your money back.

Maybe if, someone had the blueprints for the later OHC design, modular engine, and made one of those in billet they'd be staying at least with a factory design that Pontiac had come up with to satisfy their brand loyalty, and maybe have some customers outside of Pontiac fans. But you'd have a huge expense to shoulder in the development stage to get the design competitive, to then build a customer base. Lots of dark areas that would have to be bridged in order to build a customer base for a completely new engine.

Pontiac Jack has done this on a small scale making the "one-off" OHC head for his 4 cylinder Pontiac based lakester. He has had a few setbacks getting it to a stage where he can race, and not have to return home to refine his design further. Watching his work as it progresses is just the tip of the iceberg for a completely new design V8 race engine, that would be based on the modular V8 from the late 60s, early 70s. Jack had the block to start with, so his design is comes from splitting a existing V8 factory aluminum block into a 4 cylinder configuration, and designing an OHC head from scratch. Still a challenging feat, that not many could pull off.

Just saying, " I wish we had ", doesn't pay the bills for the manufacturer.

If you are designing a billet part, does it cost more to design it with a bigger bore space? It seems the return on investment would come into play if the finished product provided results...Would it be something that would become mainstream with high volume sales? Absolutely not...

As for how competitive it could be...Well, its not like Tommy's engine was severely under powered...

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by opeliac

If you are designing a billet part, does it cost more to design it with a bigger bore space? It seems the return on investment would come into play if the finished product provided results...Would it be something that would become mainstream with high volume sales? Absolutely not...

As for how competitive it could be...Well, its not like Tommy's engine was severely under powered...

If you're going for a design to keep up with the top engines already existing, why not one up them by an OHC design?

I still don't believe stretching the bore centers is going to make the Stratosteak engine competitive in that class. It's not apples to apples when you're trying to field a race car that is going to be competitive that isn't going to be run only a few times a year, then you have to wait for parts to be made for your one-off engine.

Youman needs something that he cam source parts rapidly for, not just once a year at Norwalk. I believe he wants to run a series, so waiting for billet parts that break, probably weighed into his choice to go with something that he can have parts for within a week off the shelf.

I'm sure he ran into parts availability already for his race car, plus he wasn't in the top finishers anyway.

He didn't abandon the engine, he's just going to use it in his other car.

This is all fantasy anyway, I don't know anyone currently in the Pontiac hobby that has pockets deep enough to do either option, and be competitive in a race series. Am I right?

[opeliac]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

If you're going for a design to keep up with the top engines already existing, why not one up them by an OHC design?

I still don't believe stretching the bore centers is going to make the Stratosteak engine competitive in that class. It's not apples to apples when you're trying to field a race car that is going to be competitive that isn't going to be run only a few times a year, then you have to wait for parts to be made for your one-off engine.

Youman needs something that he cam source parts rapidly for, not just once a year at Norwalk. I believe he wants to run a series, so waiting for billet parts that break, probably weighed into his choice to go with something that he can have parts for within a week off the shelf.

I'm sure he ran into parts availability already for his race car, plus he wasn't in the top finishers anyway.

He didn't abandon the engine, he's just going to use it in his other car.

This is all fantasy anyway, I don't know anyone currently in the Pontiac hobby that has pockets deep enough to do either option, and be competitive in a race series. Am I right?

Deep enough pockets??? When Kauffman, and Visner are making custom billet pieces, it doesnt take a lottery winner to be able to afford it...Billet engine parts arent gold priced...

The parts availability could very well be issues, but thats going to be a part of pioneering the way...When you look into a trailer and see several spare lock up transmissions, several bolt together converters, and an extra one or two engines sitting there ready to go, it seems there is enough money to deal with parts availability...

[Sirrotica]

So the did custom billet pieces win any national events?

Having the parts doesn't negate the combination wasn't race winning.

[bluegoat65]

I m a purest at heart. But I am ok with getting everthing I can out of the stock appearing frame. Bolt ons are bolt ons. Any racer that wants higher level performance is going to buy the best bolt ons that is out there for their budget. KRE has been doin things for awhile now. They have creativity, make power and have tools. It would be cool if they were in a position to produce their own brand engine. I would hope from there they could become an Allen Johnson type brand name someday. Will and fortitude play heavy. I mean you would probably, literally have to give motors away to select racers to campaign to create orders. They would have to be kick ass right out the gate.

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by bluegoat65

I m a purest at heart. But I am ok with getting everthing I can out of the stock appearing frame. Bolt ons are bolt ons. Any racer that wants higher level performance is going to buy the best bolt ons that is out there for their budget. KRE has been doin things for awhile now. They have creativity, make power and have tools. It would be cool if they were in a position to produce their own brand engine. I would hope from there they could become an Allen Johnson type brand name someday. Will and fortitude play heavy. I mean you would probably, literally have to give motors away to select racers to campaign to create orders. They would have to be kick ass right out the gate.

Thanks for looking at the situation with some reality.

I love the Pontiac Stratosteak design as much as anyone here does, but I really don't think extending the bore centers is going to get the job done in Youmans class. Too much development money, and time has gone into the competitions products.

The 1970 modular design was hemi headed, and OHC, so it does have one more advantage that none of the competition has so far, the OHC aspect. It is still a late 60s design so it would need to be brought up to date with technology that applies now, not 50 years ago. Ford obviously thought there was merit in the design, they have used it in production engines.

I feel if you're going to the trouble of making everything billet, update the technology at the same time. And if you want it to resemble something Pontiac engineers designed, the modular engine would be a better pattern to work from, IMO. YMMV.

The heading for the Hot Rod article was "lightweight, hemi headed, and beautiful"...

I knew after reading the article at 17 YO I was anticipating the release, but it never happened......

[opeliac]

I have never said anything bad about Tommy's decision...I know enough about high end drag racing to understand the reasons for his change...

I am also a die hard Pontiac guy, but my car was built with the mindset that it can handle a screw blown(or turbocharged) Hemi if that was ever the choice...That doesnt keep me from thinking about how fast a bigger bore spaced Pontiac design could run with either a screw, or two big twins...Chief's combo has consistently been the front runner for years, and it is so damn basic that its not even funny...A cylinder head that flows 350cfm and still can run 3.90s at weight...There is no reason that there isnt a considerable amount left to gain...It just takes the effort, knowledge, and willingness to go out and try...

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

The 1970 modular design was hemi headed, and OHC, so it does have one more advantage that none of the competition has so far, the OHC aspect. It is still a late 60s design so it would need to be brought up to date with technology that applies now, not 50 years ago. Ford obviously thought there was merit in the design, they have used it in production engines.

The heading for the Hot Rod article was "lightweight, hemi headed, and beautiful"...

I knew after reading the article at 17 YO I was anticipating the release, but it never happened......

I changed a lot of parts over 3 years on the Pontiac Over-head Camshaft engine at my uncle's Pontiac dealership.

Same deal with a friend in Minnesota who is reproducing Ford SOHC parts.
Very Nice Parts but 1960s tech.

The Boat People, Mercury Marine will sell you a properly designed LS based
DOHC Engine if you have the cash. State of the art design, not 1960s design.
AND 7.0L too. You could claim it as a 428 engine.

Tom V.

https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/75...roadster-shop/

[Scott Roberts]

Originally Posted by opeliac

If you are designing a billet part, does it cost more to design it with a bigger bore space? It seems the return on investment would come into play if the finished product provided results...Would it be something that would become mainstream with high volume sales? Absolutely not...

As for how competitive it could be...Well, its not like Tommy's engine was severely under powered...

Certainly not severely under powered, it was severely under managed.. it was a new program and wasn't give the time an resources to be fully competitive. It was under powered based on the competition but not "severely"...

[Scott Roberts]

Originally Posted by opeliac

I have never said anything bad about Tommy's decision...I know enough about high end drag racing to understand the reasons for his change...

I am also a die hard Pontiac guy, but my car was built with the mindset that it can handle a screw blown(or turbocharged) Hemi if that was ever the choice...That doesnt keep me from thinking about how fast a bigger bore spaced Pontiac design could run with either a screw, or two big twins...Chief's combo has consistently been the front runner for years, and it is so damn basic that its not even funny...A cylinder head that flows 350cfm and still can run 3.90s at weight...There is no reason that there isnt a considerable amount left to gain...It just takes the effort, knowledge, and willingness to go out and try...

2 things... Chief was a front runner but you see where he is now...or rather not..
Also, I'm not sure his combo had a lot more to give. If it did, it was on borrowed time in my opinion. The guy did an amazing job with what he had no doubt.

[tom s]

Jack started with a MT Pontiac Hemi head.Can’t go many places to even get one to scan and make a billet version.LSM also makes billet blocks.Tom