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#81
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I am not trying to make my motor into something it was not. By THE WAY I LOOKED AT YOUR build OF THE 1965 GTO AND I CAN SEE YOU ARE modifying THE SUSPENSION WITH after MARKET PARTS. I THINK if YOU WANT A vehicle TO RIDE LIKE NEW THAT IS THE BEST WAY TO GO. Sorry I can't remember to turn off the cap lock. Mike out. |
#82
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#83
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I don't have a perfect memory when I read something. So let me go through all your data and thanks again. To the rest of you this is how I expect you to act. Anything less that this is undesirable and useless and unconstructive to say the least. We are not children in a school yard. I am 64 years old and will not treat any of you like you are treating ME AT TIMES. Woops, hit the caps key sorry. Mike out. |
#84
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First of all, thank you for your help, I have read 75% of the Articles you provided in the past and I welcome the reminder of the others. I am reading all you sent again as not to miss out. Here is what I find:
Mikes Rebuttal: "A backwards swap to multiple carburetion and an earlier camshaft were never a part of any "Royal Bobcat Package." Mike Answer: How do you know that is a fact, prove it? A Tri-Power has 6 bbl and a 4 bbl well has 4 . A Dual 4 bbl has 8 bbl. I say a Tri-Power is an upgrade over a 4 bbl as long as were talking the same CFM. The Dual 4 bbl likewise is an upgrade over the Tri-Power with its 8 bbl all being or close in the air or CFM they move through the pump. This analogy is for all Carbs. systems being tested on the same motor. The Tri-Power not being on the Royal Pontiac list does not mean they were not installed on GTO and Firebirds or Big Pontiacs at Royal. I bet there are more Tri-Power set-ups on GTO's and Firebirds and Hot Rods Today than 4bbl and that is a guess. Now, let's talk about that early Cam Shaft # 524886 is the only Cam Shaft for the Tri-Power specially designated so, it must have been tested on the GM proving grounds to carry that distinction. People speak about Cams being small or big. I say it is a key to the Engine and there is only one key that works the best and when you spend your life finding that one key you stick with it for the Engines life. I have this to say my Father Raced Gym - Conna around Pylons in an obstacle course on Long Island and he might have had his 1966 and 1968 Corvette Blue Printed and Balanced at Balwin Chevrolet, I never asked and he never said so. He bought those Vehicles and they were 500 HP each. Now, I can't prove he had the work done at Baldwin but he worked close to them, so I might Speculate that is where he had the work done. He Raced at Mitchel field in Nassa and worked in Mineola. What kind of work they did at Baldwin, I don't no. Point is who is alive to say what went on in the Royal Pontiac Walls or Baldwin. Most likely they worked with what was available to them in there day. You say: "Performance upgrades are intended to improve performance, not lessen it and while both pieces you possess are nice nostalgia parts, they would not have been considered Performance upgrades by a shop as sophisticated as Royal Pontiac." Mike Answer: Was Royal Pontiac more sophisticated than Baldwin or Dana or Motion or simply the leader in the field. In 1967 Pontiac Matched the 4 bbl carb. to the best cam for the weight of the Vehicle. Tri-Power is an upgrade and the Cam that joins it are mated like a hand and a glove. Here, is a quote from what you had me read "Royal does not change the stock 4-bbl. carburetor to anything more exotic, but it, too, is modified to make it more workable." Now, ask yourself "What is more exotic than Tri-Power Carbs. in those days?" You Say "Whether these engines would have been VIN. stamped for the cars that received them is doubtful as they already carried an SR designation and identifiable as "not original" to the car. Well, there goes the Brand-New Factory Warrantee out the window. The fact of bringing a brand new Vehicle to a Dealership to have Dealership stand behind the Factory and Vica Versa. Who could afford that, I couldn't? You Say "According to the following article, the only engine-less cars shipped too Royal Pontiac were the 428 CID RA V GTO Bobcat. They were not consigned but sold directly to Royal as original owner and came less engine along with an ala carte 428 RA V crate engine". Mikes Answer: "According to the following article, that contains what the Auther is telling us only." If that were the case the owner is purchasing a used car. Second hand de-valued Vehicle, I doubt that. Your making payments on a used car, think about what your saying. The man Writing the Article is always right ...Please. Consider this, there were very few Ram Air 5 and men like Micky Thompson received one or 2 maybe, Only the wealthy could afford Ram Air 5 and Business owner Racers who can write off the Race expenses purchased Ram Air 5 in the first place." The 400,303,428 and 455 Ram Air 5-6-7 etc... were never produced or homologated so let's leave them out. Homologated 428 ci Pontiac motors are what I am thinking went into the Royal Pontiacs as the upgrade. Now, Royal could have installed Tri-power carbs. and Intakes on the 428 ci with the Cam Shaft # 524886 that mates to Tri-Powers as their upgrade in there day. In my case that being the case is somewhat obscure in that I mean it is unlikely that my Engine went into Royal Pontiac to be installed as an upgrade in a Vehicle. When I through that out to the forum it created one long conversation write, Pissed off a few and stifled others. All I was saying is what if.... You Say "In any case, a Tri-Power retrofit does not appear to have been a part of the "Bobcat Package" for a 400 or 428. Mikes Answer to this: Royal Pontiac Specifically removed the old used 400 ci and 389 according to the 3-4 articles you had me read. "FOR A MERE $650, EXCHANGE, ROYAL WILL SNAKE OUT THAT OVERWORKED LITTLE ENGINE IN YOUR GTO AND SLIDE IN THE 428, ALL PREPARED FOR ACTION. "A GTO with the standard, puny, 400 cu. in. V-8 re*moved and the full, top-of-the-line 428-incher inserted—with enough fiddling in*side the replacement engine to bump the output up some unspecified but appreciable margin above the rated 390 horsepower. All this in a car weighing some several hundreds of pounds less than that from whence the 428 engine was borrowed." "The 428 is a direct bolt-in replacement for the new 400, or the older 389." Above statements came from your articles: You Say: "Under NHRA C/Stock rules, an earlier Tri-Power installation would have been disallowed along with the 428 CID transplant as neither would have met the showroom stock criteria of the NHRA nor does it appear to have been a part of any documented Royal Bobcat package". Mikes answer to this: What year are you referring to in this statement: "Under NHRA C/Stock rules". Something to consider is that some people went in for mods to their Vehicles for street use. What about prior to 1967 when the Catalina used the 421 ci for example. what class was it in anyway? It used Tri-Power. Some of the cars used Dual 4 bbl Carbs. also. Since the 428 is only available from 1967 - 69 and the Tri-Power was on 1966 and before the racers were not constricted to GM policy. I have no Knowledge of Race Rules in those days. MIKE READ THIS IN THE ARTICAL: "Royal Pontiac’s expertise and success was so respected that John DeLorean made certain that all press cars released by Pontiac were Royal Bobcat-prepped cars. The most renowned of these press cars was a “ringer” 1964 GTO test car, prepped for a March 1964 Car and Driver article in which it went head-to-head with a Ferrari GTO. This car had a Royal Pontiac-prepped 421-cubic-inch tri-power engine that out-ran the Italian supercar in a 0–100 mph sprint. Because Pontiac V-8 engines are externally the same, no one even noticed that the engine in the test car wasn’t actually a 389. Throughout the ’60s, similar swaps would be a trademark of Royal Pontiac team." Mike Said: THUS, MY FRIENDS PROVES WHAT? 1) similar swaps would be a trademark of Royal Pontiac team. Mike Answer to this: If Royal Pontiac did this what else don't we know about. So Royal Pontiac could have Installed a Pontiac 428 ci Homologated Engine swap into a customer car and then why not mine and even though the Car is gone the Engine is in my possession. MIKE READ THIS IN THE ARTICAL: The 1966 model year proved to be the biggest sales year for the Pontiac’s GTO. As Pontiac was gaining record sales, Royal Pontiac’s mail order sales also soared, as more than 1000 Bobcat conversions kits were sold that year. Ace Wilson’s Royal Pontiac had become the pioneer dealership in building “supercars” long before COPO cars existed, and laying the path for others such as Yenko, Berger, and Grand- Spaudling to also sell dealership-prepped performance/race vehicles. Royal had also established itself as the first high-performance mail order dealership, creating a business model for the infamous Baldwin Chevrolet/Motion Performance program and even current-day Chevrolet Performance Parts sealers Hendrick Chevrolet and Scoggin-Dickey Chevrolet. "The 1966 model year proved to be the biggest sales year for the Pontiac’s GTO. As Pontiac was gaining record sales, Royal Pontiac’s mail order sales also soared, as more than 1000 Bobcat conversions kits were sold that year." "Mike's Answer to this: My Engine was cast in 1966 for the 1967 model year and there are only 1045 YK code Pontiac 428 ci HO Blocks manufactured in 1966.Who can say if at some time my Block was in the hands of the Infamous Royal Pontiac Crew. This is why I will ask the Question again "How did Royal Pontiac Stamp Their Blocks after they modified or upgraded them prior to installing them in a Vehicle in 1967, in my case? MIKE READ THIS IN THE ARTICAL: "Wilson also realized the best way to promote this new “Royal Pontiac” brand was to campaign a dealership-sponsored-and-prepped race car. Late in 1959, Wilson and his crew began testing and tuning a tri-power Catalina for that exact purpose. The S/S stock car produced 345 horsepower and was one of the first stockers in the country to exceed 100 mph and break the 13-second ceiling in the quarter-mile. A few months later at the 1960 Winter nationals, the “Hot Chief” from Royal Pontiac captured everything in its class." Mikes Answer to this: Driving a what with what Carbs. is the Question? Tri-Power Catalina, had enough proof from what you gave me to read, Tri-Power Rules! You Said: "Here's a 1970 Car and Driver article describing exactly what Jerry said earlier. GM did not allow a motor larger than 400 cid to be installed in the intermediate GTO. 428 crate motors were swapped in by Royal Pontiac which would have been SR engines purchased from Pontiac. Whether these engines would have been VIN stamped for the cars that received them is doubtful as they already carried an SR designation and identifiable as not original to the car. "Mike's Answer to this: I am going by memory but recently I read a post about Pontiac casting Blocks and then the Builders of the bare Blocks would manufacture them until a new batch of cast Blocks came in from various casting places from around the country that casted the Pontiac Blocks. So, the older Block casts sat on the shelves while the fresh ones were prioritized and completed. So, your Service Block theory may not hold up because if my memory serves me Service Blocks are over the counter to customers who claim warrantees or got stuck with a lemon. Thus, with so many Blocks in stock they can be taken off the shelves built and delivered to Royal for example without depleting the Service Block stock. So, the service Blocks may be separate, no doubt built using the Blocks "not" completed yet. Mike out. Last edited by TRADERMIKE 2012; 10-13-2021 at 09:44 AM. |
#85
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I tried the nice and logical approach. Enjoy your flight of fantasy.
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Triple Black 1971 GTO |
#86
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Question is "How are the Royal Pontiac Blocks Stamped on the upgraded 1967 428 ci Blocks when they exited the shop." |
#87
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Guys have tried to give you your answer but you refuse to listen. Maybe quit the search to prove what you are hoping to find and follow the evidence instead?
What I see is someone who wants information that does not exist and will reward for doing so. NOT HOW THE FORUMS WORK. sorry caps got stuck but I am 64 and expect a lot... |
#88
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https://www.mecum.com/lots/CH0911-11...-royal-bobcat/
1968 428 4V documented no mention of other options but maybe just maybe. https://www.racingjunk.com/news/boss...al-bobcat-gto/ |
#89
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Hoping to finish a project while I'm still able to push the clutch in.... 1963 Tempest Convertible (195-1bbl, 3-speed transaxle. 428 RAIV, 5-speed, IRS planned) Pictures |
#90
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Since the EUN number is not part of the Vin. number in 1967 who is to say that the upside number "2288" is not from a dealer who on 2 = Feb. 28 = day and 8 = 1968, that installed the Cam and Tri-Power into any vehicle. Therefore, I have as much rite to question whether the Factory installed this Engine on the assembly line or that it was installed at some Dealership that pulled the Cam out and replaced it with the Tri-power one while installing the intake Manifold on 2288. I have also read that the 428 ci Engine was highly sought out for by Racers because of their 4 bolt mains. Until any of you can prove otherwise, let me search for the answer. The other thing is "I am searching for information that does not exist" How come you people think you have the answer then? Here is what you are telling me: "were sure your wrong because why?" As sure as Royal installed a 421 ci Engine and beat the Ferrari and sold the world on it is about how sure you people are, that lie sold allot of Press. True, I, we may never get an answer but If I don't try, I will never get the answer for sure. It is like giving up on a fight before you lost it, then you lost already. Try to understand I am only asking a question that is hard to answer but not impossible. Last edited by TRADERMIKE 2012; 10-14-2021 at 12:37 PM. |
#91
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Not ALL 428s were 4 bolt main cap blocks,ALL 421s were 4 bolt mains.Enjoy your quest.Tom
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#92
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Mikes answer to this: If you are speaking to me, I have the letter" P" stamped sideways half way down on the Passenger side left facing the windshield below the Head. I saw the same letter on a 1961 Block someone posted here. It means Pontiac assembly plant according to the 1961 service manual. No other letters or numbers exist in that area on mine. See I am learning give me a chance everyone please stop with the rude posting please. Above the "P" is the upside down # 2288.
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#93
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Here’s my summary of what’s been learned from this thread:
SOMEBODY installed a ‘66 tripower and a ‘58-‘62 camshaft on a ‘67 428 engine, AND transplanted the engine into a late ‘70’s Firebird prior to your purchase of it. The engine block has some numbers stamped on it that the factory did not do. No one has been able to produce pictures or documentation of engines with similar markings that might help determine who made the markings and what they mean. You have received numerous responses from people who have been in the Pontiac game a very long time and who have been around some very exotic factory rare pieces, and all of them are giving their opinion that what you have is a nice 428 that someone did some parts swapping on. I tend to agree. The biggest reason to me, is the camshaft. Why would a dealer install that old cam when the current tripower cam (068) would have been readily available and provided higher performance? As you surmised, unless you can find original owner of the original car, you will never know the story. No rudeness is intended.
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Hoping to finish a project while I'm still able to push the clutch in.... 1963 Tempest Convertible (195-1bbl, 3-speed transaxle. 428 RAIV, 5-speed, IRS planned) Pictures |
#94
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Question is "How are the Royal Pontiac Blocks Stamped on the upgraded 1967 428 ci Blocks when they exited the shop." And "How did the Pontiac Factory stamp a Special-Order Block (Such as mine) may or not be: 1967 YK code HO 428 ci Tri-Power with the # 524886 Cam on the assembly line (purely Hypothetical question) here. Just for example: "If Pontiac installed my Motor in a 2+2 Catalina and did not follow the "Edict" just like other GM Divisions would do in the day. Pontiac and others put out some High-Performance Engine with Tri-Powers in spite to Racers and Dealers wanting them on their show room floors. So, what if..." How would the Factory stamp the Block in this scenario?" All constructive answers are welcome, no derogatory answers please, I am on a Fact-finding mission here.
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#95
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I can see that on a 4bbl Version of the 428 ci HO using the Intake designed for it, there would be an Improvement. The 1966 421 ci with the Tri-Power system and "067 or 068" is equal to the 428 ci HO with a 4bbl from what I read, because of the additional displacement only...Now the 428 ci HO motor does not know that one put the 3 Tri-Power Carbs. on it or the # 886 cam or Tri-Power Intake on it. Despite the" Edict" the 428 ci HO with the "886" Cam and Tri-Power Carbs. and Intake Manifold is better than the 4bbl on the 428 ci with Eather the "068 or 067" Cam. So, where is this improvement you're talking about. I say that the cam # 886 belongs with a Tri-Power system and works well because it was tried and tested for 10 years prier. Try to factor in that the Tri-Power Intake is unique to the Tri-Power system and designed through the years to performance standards. The "670" Heads with larger valves help to. Keeping to 1967 only before you go into round port heads please. Last edited by TRADERMIKE 2012; 10-14-2021 at 02:36 PM. |
#96
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Your probably correct and I believe you. I am looking at both sides. I never experienced the "068" or "067" Cam, even though they appear to be close to my Cam specs. Why are "068" or "067" Cam an upgrade to my 428 ci HO Tri-Power Engine that contains my specific Cammed Engine. I can see that on a 4bbl Version of the 428 ci HO using the Intake designed for it, there would be an Improvement. The 1966 421 ci with the Tri-Power system and "067 or 068" is equal to the 428 ci HO with a 4bbl from what I read, because of the additional displacement only...Now the 428 ci HO motor does not know that one put the 3 Tri-Power Carbs. on it or the # 886 cam or Tri-Power Intake on it. Despite the" Edict" the 428 ci HO with the "886" Cam and Tri-Power Carbs. and Intake Manifold is better than the 4bbl on the 428 ci with Eather the "068 or 067" Cam. So, where is this improvement you're talking about. I say that the cam # 886 belongs with a Tri-Power system and works well because it was tried and tested for 10 years prier. Try to factor in that the Tri-Power Intake is unique to the Tri-Power system and designed through the years to performance standards. The "670" Heads with larger valves help to. Keeping to 1967 only before you go into round port heads, please. Also, the "068 or 067" Cams are said to be "HO" Cams not Tri-Power cams. The only Cam designated so is # 524886 from the list I read. After 1966 there were no Factory Installed Tri-Power units but you can buy them over the counter. The Forum people say many GTO's carry them when after 1966 they were not correct. Of course, there were the Divisions that did not follow the band on Tri-Power after the "Edict" was imposed by GM Corporation. They continued to use them, some longer than others and that is Why I Hope mine is one. Story behind my Engine is this: A Moon shiner went off a Cliff while Running from the Cops in the Carolinas, the Engine was salvaged and sold to my friend who since passed away. So, since Moon shiners are known to be race car drivers and only a race car driver would know to use the Tri-Power Cam in a 4-bolt main 428 ci HO (one of 1045) to exist, I quickly deduced "Could this Engine have Nasar Provenance? "The earliest known history of something". Now if you call me a dreamer, I would understand. Mike out. |
#97
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You have the rarest of the rare Royal Oak Pontiac 428 Race engines built for use in 1988 Nascar competition. While Royal Oak was long gone in 1988 their chief mechanic, known only as "Wrong-way Peachfuzz" ("Fuzzy as he was called around Nascar circles) soldiered on out of a shed where the dealership building once stood. He date stamped each of his creations upside down on the front driver side of the block along with a sideways "P" (for Peachfuzz") near the VIN, hence the nickname "Wrong-way". He cleverly hid his illegal multiple carburetion setups from the prying eyes of Nascar techs with a cloaking device that gave the appearance of a single Holley four barrel carburetor. He also devised telescoping connecting rods and adjustable bores to trick tech inspectors into thinking it was CID compliant. Some would call him a cheater, I would call him a genius. He was also said to possess a magic wand he called "Ole Number 886" which was inserted into the motor on race day making it invincible in competition. Sadly, the cloaking device and other tricks were eventually discovered by Nascar and a team of thugs (competitors) broke into his shed and destroyed all but one of his magical engines, ... yep you guessed it #2288! That engine was latched onto by some moonshiners and became a backwoods legend, outrunning the "revenuers" right up until the pickup truck it was in failed to negotiate a curve and went off a cliff into a ravine. By the time the truck was recovered, the fabled "Fuzzy Motor" was long gone and relegated to history until your discovery. Fuzzy's name and accomplishments live on in the unwritten lore of Nascar and modern day moonshining.
That motor of yours belongs in a Nascar museum, my friend. Don't let anyone confuse you with facts about its authenticity.
__________________
Triple Black 1971 GTO |
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to NeighborsComplaint For This Useful Post: | ||
#98
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#99
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Finally, the truth is out.
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#100
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I think I see a couple areas where I might be able to help a bit:
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All Pontiac engines were cast, machined and assembled in Pontiac Michigan. K
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'63 LeMans Convertible '63 Grand Prix '65 GTO - original, unrestored, Dad was original owner, 5000 original mile Royal Pontiac factory racer '74 Chevelle - original owner, 9.85 @ 136 mph besthttp://www.superchevy.com/features/s...hevy-chevelle/ My Pontiac Story: http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=560524 "Intro from an old Assembly Plant Guy":http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=342926 Last edited by Keith Seymore; 10-15-2021 at 03:29 PM. |
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