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#1
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Trying to save a '64 GTO block
I have three blocks that look like they have been sleeved. Protrusions at the bottom of the case. One is a 69 400 block, two are 64 blocks, one of which codes out to a 64 4 speed GTO block.
I have a fourth block, a 66 421, that has the cylinders even with the bottom of the case. The questions are, 1) Has anyone heard of sleeving an entire block? 2) If the block has been sleeved, can it be re-sleeved back to standard bore? The 64 GTO block is already 0.030 over.
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Inside of every small problem there is a big one struggling to get out..... |
#2
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Does it have some sort of damage that won’t allow it to clean up at +.040” or +.060” ?
I do remember PAW (long out of business) used to offer V8 blocks sleeved back to standard size. From what I’ve read here on the forums sleeving all 8 holes is really not the best option as it compromises the strength of the block.
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1964 Tempest Coupe LS3/4L70E/3.42 1964 Le Mans Convertible 421 HO/TH350/2.56 2002 WS6 Convertible LS1/4L60E/3.23 |
The Following User Says Thank You to b-man For This Useful Post: | ||
#3
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1.) Yes, I have seen all 8 cylinders in a block (both factory and aftermarket iron) sleeved. It is quite expensive however when adding up all 8 sleeves, and unless you are saving a block for a concours numbers matching restoration, I wouldn't consider it.
2.) Yes, it can be sleeved back to standard bore. As with any block getting sleeved, whether it's one cylinder or all, I would recommend filling the coolant jackets in the block at least halfway up the cylinders. When I had one cylinder in a 455 sleeved once, I filled the block to the bottom of the water pump holes.
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Just a blind squirrel looking for a nut. |
#4
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Clean up and sleeve questions
I have access to a sonic wall tester, but the issue is how accurate will it be with a sleeved cylinder? If I recall correctly the hole is bored for an interference fit and then the sleeve is chilled to shrink it for installation. Now there are two surfaces for the transducer to "ping" off of. It might confuse the checker.
The block's casting dates and cylinder head casting dates are within a month so together with the block code it seems like it would be worthwhile to put it back in service. More measurements are being taken to see if 0.040 will clean it up. Taking it out to 0.060 is nervous time. Would rather not if it can be brought back to standard. Ohio crank is making a forging for this engine and Crower is making forged stock Pontiac dimension rods. Just got done assembling a set of Mike Wasson Tri-power carb and intake for this engine. These parts are going in because the stock crank is already 0.030 under and while it is apart only the best parts are going back in. Why is it apart? Long story for another thread.
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Inside of every small problem there is a big one struggling to get out..... |
#5
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Quote:
No shelf...I'd be VERY suspicious of that block. Sounds like it was sleeved by someone who didn't know what they were doing. |
#6
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The pre 67 block where called thick wall, but that was only in terms of the outside case walls , not the cylinder walls.
The 400 motor should have started life with the thickest cylinder walls of all of your blocks, and since you can get hold of a sonice tested I would prove that out! Some 389 motors can go up to .090"over for a hot street motor as I did with one that I had for a ton of years, but if your building for compression ratios over 10.5 to one or hp numbers in excess of 500 then as posted above I would do atleast a half fill on the block if your going for .090" over.
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Wernher Von Braun warned before his retirement from NASA back in 1972, that the next world war would be against the ETs! And he was not talking about 1/8 or 1/4 mile ETs! 1) 1940s 100% silver 4 cup tea server set. Two dry rotted 14 x 10 Micky Thompson slicks. 1) un-mailed in gift coupon from a 1972 box of corn flakes. Two pairs of brown leather flip flops, never seen more then 2 mph. Education is what your left with once you forget things! |
#7
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Quote:
The guy that bored the block was unfamiliar with installing a sleeve and bored it the same way he would have bored it oversize for a larger piston, all the way through to the crankcase. A lot of hot tempers over that fiasco. Although it wasn't the fault of my friend, the machine shop took no blame for the mistake. I have no idea if the two former friends ever got past the engine blowing up. Last I knew they weren't speaking, and this was probably 25-30 years ago. Be aware of what can happen if the sleeve doesn't have a ledge to rest on at the bottom of the cylinder. On engines designed with replaceable sleeves, (usually diesels) there is usually a flange of the top that sits into a recess on the top of the block, sandwiches between the block and the cylinder head that locates it. Most automotive engines don't have room for a flanged sleeve and must have the step at the bottom to locate the sleeve. Without that step, the sleeve is free to move downward causing the mayhem I already outlined. Sleeving all the cylinders in a block is risky as it severely compromises the strength of two adjacent cylinders. This very topic was discussed within the last year, and one of the members that was an machinist, said the would never do more than 50% 0f the cylinders in any block, and no two cylinders adjacent to each other, FWIW.
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Brad Yost 1973 T/A (SOLD) 2005 GTO 1984 Grand Prix 100% Pontiacs in my driveway!!! What's in your driveway? If you don't take some of the RACETRACK home with you, Ya got cheated Last edited by Sirrotica; 09-21-2020 at 10:56 AM. |
#8
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Schurkey, Sirrotica : X2. Gotta have a ledge.
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GOOD IDEAS ARE OFTEN FOUND ABANDONED IN THE DUST OF PROCRASTINATION |
#9
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Pic of the bottom of the cylinder, is this a sleeve?
Looks like it, but I am not sure if there is a shelf for it to sit on.
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Inside of every small problem there is a big one struggling to get out..... |
#10
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I recently installed 8 sleeves in a 1964 street hemi, numbers matching aluminum front end car. In addition to the sleeves the block had multiple cracks between freeze plugs and a chunk missing from the lower case where a connecting rod or 2 decided to leave the party. Stitched the whole damn mess back together and ran it on the dyno to 6000 RPM. It didn't leak and made just under 500 HP. Owner was happy but I wouldn't trust it back to track duty. He had over 5K just in bare block repair. To each his own. |
#11
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Looks like that cylinder is offset bored?
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1963 Cat SD Clone (old school) streeter 1964 GTO post coupe, tripower, 4speed (build) 1965 GTO 389 tripower, 4 speed, driver 1966 GTO dragcar 1966 GTO Ragtop 1969 Tempest ET clone street/strip 1969 GTO Judge RA lll, auto 1969 GTO limelight Conv. 4speed go and show (sold) 1970 GP SSJ 1970 GTO barn find..TLB…390 horse?….yeh, 390 1972 GTO 455 HO, 4 speed, (build) 1973 Grand Safari wagon, 700hp stoplight sleeper 525ci DCI & 609ci LM V head builds |
#12
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Cylinder wall measurements
The accuracy of the tested was verified with a caliper by measuring the cylinder wall through a freeze plug hole and then comparing readings. This was done several times to get repeatability. They agreed to within 0.010. So at worst a 10 %error.
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Inside of every small problem there is a big one struggling to get out..... |
#13
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I do not believe that is a sleeve. Have seen many blocks cast this way.
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#14
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Quote:
I do not believe you're looking at a sleeved block in the picture already posted, it's a normal Pontiac casting. |
#15
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Based on the sonic measurements
is this block good for a daily driver, sleeved or not? It will not be "raced" and is not intended to be a trailer queen. Just driven like a 64 would be in 1964. Street driven with occasional stop light contests. The only diff from stock specs will be an 068 cam.
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Inside of every small problem there is a big one struggling to get out..... |
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