[ITSBACK]

What is the best permatex for timing chain cover and water pump with Felpro gaskets. Just wondering what is most common and works best. I’ve used the blue with no issue and the ultra grey but twice had leaks from water pump using the grey. I’m swapping out the timing chain cover because it leaked twice with pressure tester. So ready to put it all back on and wondering what’s best.
Thank you!

[mgarblik]

RTV is not recommended as a dressing to put on top of paper or cork gaskets by any of the gasket manufacturers. To directly answer your question, I would recommend either Indian Head or Aviation Form a Gasket to aid a paper gasket. Personally I like Aviation Form a gasket a little better because it stays semi-hard. Indian Head will dry hard. Both can be a little messy and difficult to remove later. I will add that a little bead of RTV can be used at the bottom to fill the gap between the oil pan front corners and the timing chain cover. That's what RTV is for. A gasket replacement or to fill gaps.

[Dragncar]

I use Permatex #2 for water pump and timing cover gaskets. I always have it at the track too since it does not have to dry like RTV. Had RTV let me down and kicked it to the curb.

[Goatracer1]

Permatex spray HI-Tack (?) works well .

[Schurkey]

As said, the "big deal" is to NOT use RTV Silicone as a gasket sealer.

ANY proper gasket sealer will work just fine. There's many to choose from. My current favorite is Gasgacinch; but I've used many others and they're all good and useful products. Right now, my garage has a can of High Tack, a can of Gasgacinch, an old tube of Hylomar, Permatex #3 "Aviation" gasket sealer, (unopened, I've never used it but I'm willing to experiment) and I've even been known to use plain ol' brush-cap pipe thread sealer on certain gaskets.

What I used to use as gasket sealers, and DO NOT USE ANY MORE are RTV Silicone applied to a gasket, and "Yellow Death" weatherstrip adhesive on a gasket. I use weatherstrip adhesive to glue weatherstrip to metal, and to glue "rub strip" to painted surfaces. A dot of RTV at the seam between gaskets or between a gasket and rubber seal is fine.

[ITSBACK]

Thank you guys, seems like there’s a few good choices.

[chrisp]

https://www.permatex.com/products/ga.../?locale=en_us

[Half-Inch Stud]

Indian Head Aviation was my favorite for remaining semi-hard and hi-tack. But circa 1995 the (Permatex) bottle i bought dried brittle and of little tack.

I would need to know that the Indian Head Aviation Shellac is "all good now"; Was there an acknowledged problem, and has the quality been re-established?

[Dick Boneske]

I used Permatex gasket shellac and similar sealers for many years, and thought the advent of RTV based products was a huge step forward. The time we used to spend cleaning off the residue of these old sealers was reduced by a lot if RTV was used for assembly.

Isn't it true that the old Permatex shellac and other gasket sealers have been replaced by RTV sealers on 100% of engines manufactured today. The requirements for sealers to supplement paper, cork, rubber, or other gasket materials is no different with modern engines than it is in our old Pontiac engines.

What am I missing?

[Grand73Am]

Originally Posted by Dick Boneske

I used Permatex gasket shellac and similar sealers for many years, and thought the advent of RTV based products was a huge step forward. The time we used to spend cleaning off the residue of these old sealers was reduced by a lot if RTV was used for assembly.

Isn't it true that the old Permatex shellac and other gasket sealers have been replaced by RTV sealers on 100% of engines manufactured today. The requirements for sealers to supplement paper, cork, rubber, or other gasket materials is no different with modern engines than it is in our old Pontiac engines.

What am I missing?

When you use a gasket, you should use a gasket sealant. Below is a link to Permatex's page of gasket sealant products. Notice there's no RTV among them.

If you look up their RTV products, they're "gasket makers", not sealants. They're not made to be used on gaskets, but to replace gaskets. So, using a gasket maker on a gasket is redundant and adds extra material that shouldn't be there. They should only be used to make a gasket, or to fill a joint or corner where a gasket meets or ends.

https://www.permatex.com/product-cat...sket-sealants/

[mgarblik]

Originally Posted by chrisp

https://www.permatex.com/products/ga.../?locale=en_us

This link to a specific Permatex product for thermostat and water pump RTV product is not to be confused with a paper gasket aid. This product is for use as a gasket replacement, (no paper gasket). I see no reason it would not work but would be low on my list if my intent was to use gaskets. Most of this type of blister pack product is for marketing and maximizing profits. They package it in a smaller tube and apply a specific use for the contents. This helps push the uninformed into buying multiple tubes of essentially the same product which all eventually dries out and then you need more. Brilliant really. My direct contact with Valco Cincinnati, one of the largest actual producers of RTV has let us in on a little secret. All the various colors and configurations of RTV are basically the same and can be used in the same applications. Clear, black, gray, orange, blue, silver, it's all the same stuff. That's from the people who make it by the tanker full!

[mgarblik]

Originally Posted by Dick Boneske

I used Permatex gasket shellac and similar sealers for many years, and thought the advent of RTV based products was a huge step forward. The time we used to spend cleaning off the residue of these old sealers was reduced by a lot if RTV was used for assembly.

Isn't it true that the old Permatex shellac and other gasket sealers have been replaced by RTV sealers on 100% of engines manufactured today. The requirements for sealers to supplement paper, cork, rubber, or other gasket materials is no different with modern engines than it is in our old Pontiac engines.

What am I missing?

A little about modern engines and gaskets: The Japanese taught the Americans that having seeping, dripping gaskets and seals was an indication of low quality. My first introduction of oil pans RUSTING OUT from the outside in, was when I worked for Nissan. The engines were that dry. Also modern engines run much hotter and last longer between rebuilds. Paper and wood, (cork) gaskets are things of the past like leather accelerator pump cups. For ease of robotic assembly, silicone seals that fit in a groove and are pre-formed are the most popular gasket design today. Two advantages. 1. They are easy to service. 2. They have built-in sleeves or stops in the parts to stop the compression when tightened and get perfect crush within reason. Second choice is liquid RTV applied by a robot. Seals well but can be hell in the service industry because parts must be absolutely clean and dry to guarantee a seal. Paper gaskets when used in 1955-1980 on new engines were generally installed dry and worked OK because the parts were new, clean and flat. 50 years later, gasket glues and sealers, help fill the pits, corrosion and minor warpage. RTV doesn't do well in this situation. It NEEDS air to cure, (moisture specifically). Close fitting parts often won't allow air into the joint. So you end up with two beads, one inside and one outside that cure. The actual part you want to seal in-between never cures. On an oil pan for example, the inside bead can and will eventually fall off in pieces into the oil pan, clogging up the pick-up, getting caught in the piston rings, in the timing chain and gears and generally doing no good. This does eventually expose the un-cured RTV in the joint and it may cure or the oil will push the RTV out and you get a pan leak. Sorry for the long post but this is the reason RTV is not recommended on top of gaskets. As a gasket replacement, enough air is exposed to RTV to cure it.

[Schurkey]

Originally Posted by Half-Inch Stud

Indian Head Aviation was my favorite for remaining semi-hard and hi-tack. But circa 1995 the (Permatex) bottle i bought dried brittle and of little tack.

I would need to know that the Indian Head Aviation Shellac is "all good now"; Was there an acknowledged problem, and has the quality been re-established?

I think you're combining two separate products:

Indian Head Shellac
https://www.permatex.com/products/ga.../?locale=en_us

The original quality formula, a hard setting, economical sealant.

and

Permatex® Aviation Form-A-Gasket® No. 3
https://www.permatex.com/products/ga...ealant-liquid/

Slow-drying, non-hardening brush-top sealant approved for use in aviation as well as automotive applications.

I've got a bottle of the Aviation #3 in the shop, but I haven't opened it yet. No telling how I'm gonna like the stuff...but I'm willing to learn. Never used "Indian Head Shellac". No opinion on that product.

[AG]

I use Hi-Tack for paper gaskets on machined surfaces.

[tom s]

I have been using Hylomar for years.Seals well and oh so EZ to clean up.FWIW,Tom

[torqhead]

This may be similar to the great mask debate, but I've used permatex blue for water pump and black for timing cover and oil pan with felpro gaskets on many motors over the past 15-20 years with absolutely no issues

[dataway]

Something that has always worked well for me when possible ... if you have a large flat surface ... really flat ... I lap every single part that I can. Works wonders for the timing cover to block joint, thermostat to intake, fuel pump to timing cover, water pump side of timing cover etc. Having a really flat surface makes most sealing problems go away. Water pump can't be done unless the impeller is removed.

Did it for years on motorcycle race engines ... easy because everything is smaller and will fit on a lapping plate.

I try to be as careful with every gasketed surface as we all are with our cylinder heads. You'd be surprised all the high spots and slight warping you can remove with a few minutes lapping.

[ITSBACK]

Did that with my thermostat housing on my tripower I used to have as I kept having issues. Got it so smooth and flat I used ultra grey, no gasket and was great!

[Half-Inch Stud]

Originally Posted by mgarblik

.........specific Permatex product.......blister pack product is for marketing and maximizing profits. They package it in a smaller tube and apply a specific use for the contents. This helps push the uninformed into buying multiple tubes of essentially the same product which all eventually dries out and then you need more. Brilliant really. My direct contact with Valco Cincinnati, one of the largest actual producers of RTV has let us in on a little secret. All the various colors and configurations of RTV are basically the same and can be used in the same applications. Clear, black, gray, orange, blue, silver, it's all the same stuff. That's from the people who make it by the tanker full!

We made our own tiny (3ounce) RTV batches, as needed, at GE, for best results. MostlyCleat stuff. Add Iron oxide for RTV-566 RTV. RTV on Teflon-coated gaskets ( think Fel-Pro) need primer to etch the teflon.

[GTO JONES]

I use "right stuff" haven't had a leak.