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#41
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Don't necessarily need a shroud. With a good fan and close enough to the radiator that deal seems to work. Our nomad never had any type of shroud from the factory. Yet we've had a pretty high strung and strong running 327 in that thing since the 70's, and just a typical 4 core stock looking replacement radiator from Desert Cooler, and a direct drive 7 blade GM fan. Drove it daily for years, that engine will run 180 degrees all the time no matter what the outside temps were or how hard you pushed it. It helps that the radiator really isn't any wider than the fan itself too.
Funny today the aftermarket actually makes a shroud for the tri-5's now because people feel they need one I guess, but it never had one originally and from my experience, doesn't need it. Get into these situations where the engines are so far back from the radiator like dad's 69 GTO, or the fact that they use a radiator that is 28" wide and a fan can't cover that space, then I start to see the need for a shroud. In your case Dick, as you can see in your photos, the 64-65 A-body radiator really isn't that wide, and is about the same size as a tri-5 chevy radiator, and same down flow design. A good 18-19" fan damn near covers it, lol. Last edited by Formulajones; 06-25-2019 at 09:17 PM. |
#42
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Dick B: I ordered my 64 EXACTLY the same as yours. Still have the 19" clutch fan, 4 core radiator, no shroud ,as delivered. Now has a modified 455 H-O with A/C. No cooling problems. Can't figure why later cars have issues. But they do!
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GOOD IDEAS ARE OFTEN FOUND ABANDONED IN THE DUST OF PROCRASTINATION |
#43
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Installing An Improved Pontiac Cooling System – Cool Winds
https://www.hotrod.com/articles/hppp...ooling-system/ .
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'70 TA / 505 cid / same engine but revised ( previous best 10.63 at 127.05 ) Old information here: http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0712p...tiac-trans-am/ Sponsor of the world's fastest Pontiac powered Ford Fairmont (engine) 5.14 at 140 mph (1/8 mile) , true 10.5 tire, stock type suspension https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDoJnIP3HgE |
#44
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When I got my Tempest it had a non stock shroud on it of dubious origin and the gm 19 inch fan. Although it was just a worn out 326 no matter what you did to it it would never go over 180. The radiator sprung a leak and already looked horrible so I ordered a champion. Same result never went over 180. Now that I have this big honking 467 I ordered a cold case HO radiator but without the electric fans. I bought a smaller derale 17 inch fan and a factory shroud and will hope for the best. Just a little Tidbit though, if you’re looking at Summit for water pumps don’t buy the Milodon. I ordered it cause it was middle of the road price wise. I got it and it had GMB stamped in the front of it. I got on Rockauto and the GMB aluminum water pump was 1/4 what I paid for the Milodon. I ordered the GMB and confirmed they were the exact same so I called Summit and told them someone had box swapped them and I wanted another Milodon pump sent out. Got the new Milodon. Guess what, it’s a GMB. They are just reboxxing them and marking them up. I sent them back to Summit and kept the one from Rockauto. Aluminum pump with cast iron impeller. We will see how it cools
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468/TKO600 Ford thru bolt equipped 64 Tempest Custom. Custom Nocturne Blue with black interior. |
#45
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#46
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Quote:
Tom V.
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"Engineers do stuff for reasons" Tom Vaught Despite small distractions, there are those who will go Forward, Learning, Sharing Knowledge, Doing what they can to help others move forward. |
#47
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My old 4 core brass in the bird went bad or got clogged or whatever and I was going to go aftermarket alum. Then a buddy said he had a fairly new 4 core that he had had made with "waffled" tubes so I put it in. Last year I got caught in terrible cruise line n Reno and before I pulled over my temp gauge said 243. Over last winter I installed the Taurua 2 speed elec controlled by the sniper. These last few days have been the hottest I've had it in so far. 100 deg ambient temps( running up to 204), yesterday commuting home in stop and go and slow roll at 80 deg amb( 206). Still running the same brass rad. Im not too worried until it breaks over 210 but I'd rather it not get there. We haven't hit the full heat of summer here yet so I'm thinking a new rad is probably in my future. At that point I may decide to go back and try out the other fan options again and see what works best. Just would be nice not to have to worry about it anymore.
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Robert 69 Firebird-462/Edel round ports/currently running the Holley Sniper/4sp/3.23posi/Deluxe Int/pwr st/vintage air/4wl disc( a work in progress-always ) http://youtu.be/eaWBd3M9MN4 |
#48
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Assuming a radiator in good shape, generally if a car over heats in traffic and not on the highway, it's an air flow problem, not a radiator problem.
If the car doesn't over heat on the highway it means the radiator is capable of removing the necessary amount of heat. If it can't remove the necessary amount of heat at idle or in traffic it's most likely not enough air flow .... or in some cases not enough low rpm water flow. |
#49
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Quote:
Fast forward 50 years, these cars have been through the ringer with aftermarket parts floating all over the place, and backyard mechanics with their fingers in everything, overheating on any car can be a multitude of reasons, non of which are the cars fault. Funny story, we attend Goodguys twice a year in Scottsdale. March and November. Those dates usually have mid 80's for temps in that part of Arizona. What amazes me at the end of the day when 2,000 cars try to file out of that place and you get sort of a log jamb at times. The amount of cars that have to pull out of line because they are overheating and pushing antifreeze just flat boggles my mind. Literally dozens and dozens of them. I just idle along in line and shake my head in disbelief. Here we have cars that people have 10's of thousands, and even 6 figure digit numbers invested, and they can't idle on an 85 degree day without puking?? Sad. I feel sorry for them when the temps hit 115 degrees, lol. If you can't cut it on an 85 degree day in Arizona, you're going to be in serious trouble. Last edited by Formulajones; 06-26-2019 at 11:08 AM. |
#50
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Quote:
Last edited by Formulajones; 06-26-2019 at 11:09 AM. |
#51
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Speaking of Ford fans, there has been novels written about the success stories of putting junkyard Mark VIII, Taurus, and the dual Sable/Cougar fans with enormous success at a low price. Well now if you put those model numbers in the google machine you will find those fans reproduced as stock replacement by companies like Dorman. Does anyone know if those replacement models pull a similar amount of air compared to their factory forefathers?
Again we all know that the factory fans work, but the youngest of those parts are nearly 2 decades old now. Electric motors do wear out and die.
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1967 Firebird 462 580hp/590ftlbs 1962 Pontiac Catalina Safari Swapped in Turd of an Olds 455 Owner/Creator Catfish Motorsports https://www.youtube.com/@CatfishMotorsports |
#52
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#53
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In my 69 GTO with A/C, I've run a Griffin 1.25" tube radiator since 2005 with no issues.
With the a/c on a 90-degree day, car will run 160 on the highway and 170 on the street. I use the Hayden severe duty clutch fan and factory 19" fan. |
#54
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My combo: '67 GTO, '74 455 stock stuff. When I got the car it had PCP (Tom V's Poor Choice of Parts).... 3 row radiator from something unknown. Puked after heat soaking and hard to start.
Clearanced the pump plate..BIG difference went from about 1/4" to about .050". Temp would still rise on a hot day (85 or greater in traffic, high humidity). Added a shroud, somewhat better. Finally got around to replacing the known wrong 3 row radiator narrow tank with a Cold Case (proper tank size like a OEM 4 row) and now it stays at thermostat setting. The Cold Case design certainly improves the cooling, as expected, but it's also sized as a OEM radiator would be for a 400+ sized engine. Adding a shroud, (I feel it's mandatory for a large V8) is the proper thing to do also, I can't imagine some OEM versions that don't have a shroud for the V8's. To me, that just moves the underhood air around at idle, I guess it's good enuf at idle since the waste heat production is a lot less. George
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"...out to my ol'55, I pulled away slowly, feeling so holy, god knows i was feeling alive"....written by Tom Wait from the Eagles' Live From The Forum |
#55
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Two articles that maybe of interest.....
How to Design And Build A High-Performance Cooling System https://www.hotrod.com/articles/ccrp...ooling-system/ Fan Shrouds - A Critical Cooling System Component https://www.speedwaymotors.com/the-t...omponent/28863 Many street-car overheating problems occur at low vehicle speeds because of reduced airflow through the radiator. The best way to combat that is with a fan shroud designed to pull air from the entire radiator. .
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'70 TA / 505 cid / same engine but revised ( previous best 10.63 at 127.05 ) Old information here: http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0712p...tiac-trans-am/ Sponsor of the world's fastest Pontiac powered Ford Fairmont (engine) 5.14 at 140 mph (1/8 mile) , true 10.5 tire, stock type suspension https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDoJnIP3HgE |
#56
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One thing I did notice last year. On my way home it was about mid 80s and I got stuck in a line of cars about 2 miles long getting through a stoplight. I was sure after overheating in Reno there was no way I was going to make it. When the temp started to creep up I got out and popped the hood about 6-8 inches. It let enough of the underhood heat out that the temp stayed under control. I was actually shocked that it worked because I was in traffic for quite some time moving now and then when the light changed and let a few cars through. Kind of makes me think that some sort of hot air evac system from the engine comp might go a long way to keeping things from getting ugly. They had air extractors on the original 69 Trans ams. I'm not sure how effective they were but those guys didn't usually do things for nothing.
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Robert 69 Firebird-462/Edel round ports/currently running the Holley Sniper/4sp/3.23posi/Deluxe Int/pwr st/vintage air/4wl disc( a work in progress-always ) http://youtu.be/eaWBd3M9MN4 |
#57
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Exact same pump
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468/TKO600 Ford thru bolt equipped 64 Tempest Custom. Custom Nocturne Blue with black interior. |
#58
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+1 on this. The milidon has gmb even stamped on it Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
#59
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I do need to mention that GMB makes two separate pumps and it’s the nicer of the two but 40 dollars is ok. 130 not so much
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468/TKO600 Ford thru bolt equipped 64 Tempest Custom. Custom Nocturne Blue with black interior. |
#60
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"My first guess would be "PCP" (a Poor Choice of Parts), on cars that overheat, and then a lack of knowledge on how to actually tune the parts on the engine. Poor Carb Tuning, Poor Timing Control, Race Car parts but not actually a Race Car (PCP)."
+2 The key to running cool and not needing a butt-ton of aftermarket parts starts with the engine build and well chosen parts. I have ZERO issues in the area of running hot, overheating, detonation, etc with our engines. Matter of fact we have the opposite problem, they are difficult to get up to temp, especially when it starts getting cool/cold outside. From what I've seen one common denominator with running hot, even with pretty "mild" set-ups is quench distance. The tighter you squeeze one of these engines the LESS heat it transfers to the coolant. Combine that will well selected compression ratios, camshaft events, and very close control of timing/fuel curves and you'll find your new engine will not "creep" up past the thermostat set point with steady cruising (common problem with Pontiac engines) or getting stuck in traffic when it's really hot outside. We also run hotter thermostats in our engines as thermal efficiency is your friend with these things. It's important for the oil temps to get hot enough to boil the water vapors out of them to reduce sludge and "froth" formation. Not uncommon at all to see "modern" engines with stat's in them well over 200 degrees. Coincidentally I worked on a friends 2010 Jeep Cherokee recently. It was not running well and started to suck down a LOT of fuel. Did a scan and noticed the engine temps were down around 150 degrees. Replaced the stat (pretty sure it was 207 degrees) and it instantly corrected all the issues and fuel mileage cam right back to where it should be.........Cliff
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If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read this in English, thank a Veteran! https://cliffshighperformance.com/ 73 Ventura, SOLD 455, 3740lbs, 11.30's at 120mph, 1977 Pontiac Q-jet, HO intake, HEI, 10" converter, 3.42 gears, DOT's, 7.20's at 96mph and still WAY under the roll bar rule. Best ET to date 7.18 at 97MPH (1/8th mile), |
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