[The Champ]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

When the M23Z's are nearly $3000 alone, and you still aren't getting the benefits of an overdrive or even the first gear multipication, nor is it as strong, it's easy to see why the 5 speeds are the way to go.

NEW MUNCIE
M23-Z
4 SPEED TRANSMISSION
SEVERE DUTY - ULTRA-WIDE RATIO
STREET OR STRIP

THESE ARE BRAND NEW MUNCIE TRANSMISSIONS WITH ULTRA HEAVY DUTY CASE AND THE LATEST UPDATES / REVISIONS IMPROVING THEM COMPARED TO THE ORIGINAL "ROCK CRUSHER" - AND THE M23 SERIES TRANNYS FEATURE A STRONGER FIRST GEAR FOR DRAG RACERS !!
A DIRECT REPLACEMENT FOR YOUR MUNCIE OR T-10

CALL FOR MORE INFORMATION AND ASK ABOUT OUR "OVERDRIVE" COMPARISON !

GEAR RATIOS:
1ST 2.994
2ND 2.225
3RD 1.468
4TH 1.000

Price - $2350.00

https://fabcraftmetalworks.com/produ...TATE--ECONOMY/

[Formulajones]

Yep that's what I mean. Hard to justify that. You're more than half and nearly 2/3 of the way to a TKO swap. And no matter what you do with the rear gear with that M23Z, you aren't going to get the same results as a 5 speed with either first gear multiplication or highway rpm cruise speed. Plus it's still not going to be as strong as a TKO600.

[73ta]

Bought my TKO 600 from Liberty Gear. You might check them out. They do various upgrades for different power capabilities also. I did'nt need any install kit and the bare trans from them was the loest pricet option for me.

[tom s]

FYI
https://www.ebay.com/itm/TREMEC-TCET...kHjL:rk:6:pf:0

[64speed]

What all upgrades do you guys consider essential for a TKO600 that will be driven everyday and see some spirited but not necessarily abusive street driving. I don’t want any plastic shift for pads or whatever someone else said they had. While we are on the topic of transmissions, at what HP level do you consider the Lakewood scattershid to be a requirement over the standard Pontic bellhousing? I have a billet SFI flywheel and will be using a good name brand clutch. I know it’s a stupid question. I like having my feet and will buy the Lakewood I know it I just wondered where you considered it essential. Also how long do you think it will be till someone adapts a new GM seven speed to one of these old jalopies? Are they triple overdrive or are they just still double overdrive with a very scary first gear ratio?

[Formulajones]

You don't necessarily need to upgrade anything in the TKO600. They have worked fine for many years for thousands of people right out of the box. I personally like the shift feel of the upgraded sincro's and blueprinted tolerances, not specifically for high rpm shifts as they advertise, I like the smoother shifter feel it provides. It doesn't make the transmission any stronger, but for what I've been installing them in over the years, they have proved to be plenty strong enough as is. This upgrade is about $600 from places like SST, American Powertrain, Rockland.

I'm guessing American Powertrain offers a strengthen upgrade as that was mentioned somewhere on the forum, but I've asked about that specifically and was told the shifting upgrade was all they offered.

As far as a blow proof, it's really personal preference. If you plan any track days, (even if you say no now it's always a possibility for a little fun at an event) the blowproof is required for anything 11.99 or quicker.
A blowproof is a good idea regardless and not much money. I also like the idea of having the block saver on there with it for those running expensive and rare blocks that aren't falling off trees anymore.

[tom s]

I have owned 3 diff TKOs in the last 20 years and have not had any internal upgrades done to them.As FJ I was used to the smoothness of the muncies but did not take that long for me to get used to the rail shifters.I have always used a aftermarket shifter on them.I think one by Hurst.Been so long I dont remember.Im REALLY wanting to put a McLeod in my 62 421 GP,just trying to get the energy(and cash)to make the swap.Also think I will need to drop the rear gear from my 2.68 to something a little lower.Dont have a lot of choices 3.08 or a 3.42 and all I have is a 4.10.Tom

[Formulajones]

Tom, Did you see Summit is having a sale on the M5? $2515.

One thing bugging me is the speedo. Since the speedo is on the driver side and spinning the wrong way, they offer a reversed adapter for the speedo to correct it. However I'm seeing reviews that it doesn't work. And I haven't seen any other solution mentioned. I'm also guessing it takes a typical Ford style gear (which needs an adapter to a GM cable, or change the cable) to calibrate the speedo since the design is based off the T5, but haven't found anything on that either.

Not sure why they didn't build that thing with the speedo on the passenger side.

[tom s]

I have been working on a boat for the last 2 weeks and have not spent much time on any site but here.Just bought another RAV project so will have to put the trans on the back burner.Tom

[61-63]

Personally I prefer the m23z. With those low first three gears you can run a 3.23 in back which acts like a 4.10 in #s 1-3, but then runs 1:1 in 4th so you can go down the highway with it, you do not have to mess with the hump, and the shifter comes up where it should. Plus supposedly good for 600 tq. That's just me.

[tom s]

John,you know im running the 3.42 first gear ST-10 with a 2.68 in my 62 421 GP!Also ran one in my 421 HO 63 GP.Tom

[61-63]

Tom those cars ought to be very good performers too. That you can also go down the highway with. How many long highway trips do folks take in these old cars I'm wondering? No need for a 5 or 6 speed unless it is a lot of them IMHO.

Stuart just posted this thread about upgrading an original t10 to be a st10. I called the guy and he can do it with a '61-63 Pontiac t10. I am going to send him some pictures and measurements and may do that instead of an m23z.

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=824281

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by 61-63

How many long highway trips do folks take in these old cars I'm wondering? No need for a 5 or 6 speed unless it is a lot of them IMHO.

.

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=824281

We drive ours daily, albeit without overdrives. Quite a few long highway trips actually. I did 600 miles this year on Route 66 alone. Frequent trips to Phoenix for the cruises and shows which is 200 miles round trip each time. Been to the dragstrip twice in the firebird this year which is 220 miles round trip. Raced it both times and on one trip I drove it back and forth too. We put several thousand miles on 2 of the classics every year between my wife and I. One with 3.31 gears and 400 turbo, and the other with an M-20 and 3.55's. Not a big deal really, but we would certainly benefit from any overdrive.

For what you're proposing to do, running the 3.23's, you don't need an M23Z for that. You can just run an M20 in front of it and save yourself $2500. If you really want an M23Z, with their steep first gear, they are really designed for 2.73 or 3.08 rear gears. That will at least give you decent highway cruise capability. You sound as though you're worried about stop light performance too.

Without an overdrive it's impossible to cover both ends of the spectrum, you'll have to give up something on one end or the other.

[tom s]

My 62 GP has had a few trips to San Diego and back,about 95 miles each way.Im driving it to a little show in the AM and its about 50-55 miles round trip.The 2.68s with a 28 in tire is REALLY nice and just change feet when leaving a stop with the 3.42 first,no feathering the clutch.I really just want to try a Mcleod to see how they are.I guess I could pull the TKO500 out of the bird and put it in it.First gens need no cutting for a TKO except for making the shifter hole a touch bigger.As said im too busy with the boat at this time to think about it.Tom

[dhcarguy]

I drive my 65 GTO 0n the highways a lot from May til Oct. My buddies and I look for shows that are 1 to 2 hours away ,all the time . We like driving our cars and seeing cars that are not local.

My car has a healthy cam with 4 speed and 3:90's. I am cruising around 2900 rpm's at 55mph.

Dave

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by dhcarguy

I drive my 65 GTO 0n the highways a lot from May til Oct. My buddies and I look for shows that are 1 to 2 hours away ,all the time . We like driving our cars and seeing cars that are not local.

My car has a healthy cam with 4 speed and 3:90's. I am cruising around 2900 rpm's at 55mph.

Dave

Nice to hear others doing the same. That's what they are meant for. Driving, enjoying, even a little track time is fun. Living in Arizona we have no choice but to drive long distances if you want to hit the big shows. Lots of open desert between towns, and with year round driving weather there is really no down time either. I just drove our M-20 3.55 car down to Goodguys last weekend, after my wife drove it to work all week. I did 240 miles that day alone.

Neat that you're running 3.90's and driving it. I've had 4.10's in my chevelle since 1988 and I've driven that everywhere. With 28" tires it's 2800 at 55 mph, I usually put it on 3,000 and run about 60 mph. Been doing that for 30 years. That's really the car I should be looking at an overdrive for, lol. When I jump in my wifes car with 3.55's, I feel like I have an extra gear already

[PunchT37]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

Nice to hear others doing the same. That's what they are meant for. Driving, enjoying, even a little track time is fun. Living in Arizona we have no choice but to drive long distances if you want to hit the big shows. Lots of open desert between towns, and with year round driving weather there is really no down time either. I just drove our M-20 3.55 car down to Goodguys last weekend, after my wife drove it to work all week. I did 240 miles that day alone.

Neat that you're running 3.90's and driving it. I've had 4.10's in my chevelle since 1988 and I've driven that everywhere. With 28" tires it's 2800 at 55 mph, I usually put it on 3,000 and run about 60 mph. Been doing that for 30 years. That's really the car I should be looking at an overdrive for, lol. When I jump in my wifes car with 3.55's, I feel like I have an extra gear already

Damn, and I bitch about mine turning 3 grand at 70.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by PunchT37

Damn, and I bitch about mine turning 3 grand at 70.

LOL I can understand that too. When you want to keep up with traffic and you have to push it that hard, then looking at overdrive options is pretty tempting. I've kept up with traffic in the chevelle at times, but I have to run it at 34-3500 rpm. Car doesn't seem to mind though, it never gets over 175 degrees, but it drinks the gas, lol.

Looking at overdrives for my wife's 4 speed car with 3.55's though. I do 3,000 in that to cruise at 70 mph with it's 27" tire. Thing is though, it's a daily driver and it's also the car we tend to use most on weekends as well with family. So it seems I should look at overdrive options for that car first. I'd like to have better 1st gear multiplication in that one, as well as highway capability, and the 5 speed will do that without messing with the rear gear at all. Even the 2.52 first gear currently is a bit too sluggish at stop lights for my liking.

[MNBob]

I'm guessing American Powertrain offers a strengthen upgrade as that was mentioned somewhere on the forum, but I've asked about that specifically and was told the shifting upgrade was all they offered.

I have an extreme TKO. The Extreme package has polished sliders, bronze shift forks, cryo-treated gears, and carbon fiber synchro rings. American Powertrain says it is rated at 950 ft-lbs.

[PunchT37]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

LOL I can understand that too. When you want to keep up with traffic and you have to push it that hard, then looking at overdrive options is pretty tempting. I've kept up with traffic in the chevelle at times, but I have to run it at 34-3500 rpm. Car doesn't seem to mind though, it never gets over 175 degrees, but it drinks the gas, lol.

That was gonna be my next point. You`ll need a 1 inch thick credit card to go on a long trip with 463 cubes, 600 lift, 220/170 valves, going 70 to 80 mph.