["QUICK-SILVER"]

Originally Posted by glhs#116

As far as the bearings on the block side of things all look pretty OK except #1 which is pretty badly down to copper. So with #1 worn on the block side and #2 and #3 worn on the cap side it sure sounds like the crank (if it isn't badly bent which it doesn't seem to be) is flexing. Would that indicate balance problems?

Crank flex, maybe..Bent, I don't think so. Bent spot/area on a crank would go round and round wearing bearings out all the way around.

May have been some crazy harmonics going on when the bad converter was in it.

All it takes is a spec of debris behind a bearing to get wear marks like these. And could be the bearings aren't the same thickness all across the surface. That you can check with a mic or caliper.

As far as 'bad' on the bearing wear...unusual/abnormal maybe but not bad.

Clay

[glhs#116]

Originally Posted by "QUICK-SILVER"

All it takes is a spec of debris behind a bearing to get wear marks like these. And could be the bearings aren't the same thickness all across the surface. That you can check with a mic or caliper.

As far as 'bad' on the bearing wear...unusual/abnormal maybe but not bad.

Clay

I wouldn't rule out "specs" of dust behind bearing shells or under caps. The current crankshaft was installed in the engine at the workshop you see in the pictures. It was hardly a laboratory and the work would have been done half outdoors (under cover but not inside). The guys at the workshop are honest workers but more the kind of guys who fish in a big box for any bolt that fits the hole rather than the sort that mics and polishes everything. It's entirely possible.

Sam

[shaker455]

Seeing your first crank broke in the block you may have a block issue as I mention early on.
I don't think your drop indicator measures in tenths.
More like thousands...
Maybe post a pic of your indicator face.
Bottom line is your engine needs to be rebuilt properly.

[glhs#116]

Originally Posted by shaker455

Seeing your first crank broke in the block you may have a block issue as I mention early on.
I don't think your drop indicator measures in tenths.
More like thousands...
Maybe post a pic of your indicator face.
Bottom line is your engine needs to be rebuilt properly.

It reads in thousandths. (0.001). My saying 0.0003 - 0.0004 is a reflection that in a full turn of the crank I see the needle move about 1/3 or a marking on the dial. 1/3 of 0.001 is 0.0003333... or around 0.0003 - 0.0004

Sam

[glhs#116]

Looks like my piston and rod assemblies are pretty well matched in weight. Since I was using the kitchen digital scale I weighed each rod three times:

1. 1791 1791 1791
2. 1791 1791 1791
3. 1790 1791 1791
4. 1790 1790 1790
5. 1792 1793 1792
6. 1791 1791 1791
7. 1792 1793 1792
8. 1790 1790 1791

So I think we can pretty much take the weight at 1791 grams for the purposes of balancing a crank.

I've been thinking about the main bearings as well. I didn't really put it together until now because in my head I still had the words of my garage guy (in 2012) telling me the crank was snapped between #4 and rear main. But now that I'm looking at the old pictures in the thread here I can clearly see he told me wrong. Because in the picture it is very clear that the crank (the old one) is snapped between #2 and #1. Put that together with the main bearing picture (#1 copper on the block-side shell, #2 and #3 copper on the cap side shell) and you can see that what a number of people have been saying is doubtless true. Main bearings need to be align bored. How is this done? I don't see how it wouldn't end up enlarging the hole. But I've never heard of different bearings for align bored blocks.

Of course the other thing the block and bearings is telling me is that between the worn cam gear and the oil being sucked in I've been having detonation that I wasn't aware of. This can be seen from the rod bearings which have mostly just fallen out when I take the cap off and which show accelerated wear on the rod end shell.

Further thinking on this I'm still fairly sure that what needs to happen right now is I get a crank that someone preps for me in a good shop in the US and ships to me here. One that is prepared and balanced for my pistons and rods. That will give me peace of mind regarding balance and deal with the damaged bearing surfaces on the current crank. As for align boring the block it strikes me as a risky operation to go through with at a possibly unreliable shop. It also strikes me that the engine was surviving even with detonation with even the slightly shifted mains so a good new balanced crank should live until I get the car to a more civilised country in a few years.

The bores themselves look good with no real ridge. But they are quite shiny. Is there any sense in giving them a ball hone? I can do that here. Would I then need new rings again? Or just leave well alone the rings and bores as they are?

Sam

[shaker455]

If you go on that link for R&L Engines I think you can view the the machine designed to bore and hone the main saddles.
I've done it myself, quite an operation.
The caps get cut a few thousands to reduce the hole size then machined back to specs in the machine.
The goal is to take the least amount out of the block so your not reducing center to center distance from the cam bore.

[chiphead]

That bearing insert could have just been tight or slightly overtorqued. It's worn at the 12 oclock position, where a bearing is the tightest. The bearing insert tapers (gets looser) on purpose as you approach the parting line.

What I've seen from my current 433 build, is that bearing clearances can end up all over the place with a given crank and block. Depending on bearing inserts used, torque setting, and method used to torque the caps, clearances can change .0015"!! You can really move the clearances without doing anything to the crank or the block.

If this engine was built by migrants in a mud hut, there is no telling what happened.

If you can get a cheap inside dial bore gauge, you can mic the main housings and determine if you have major cap shift. I'm not seeing a deal-breaker yet. I've seen worse bearings. The original crank that broke could be a fluke, or a defect, or abused in a former life. There is no telling.

The engine is still salvageable even in your current situation. You will need new rings, bearings, gaskets etc. Get a balanced stock crank, a cheap summit cam, a basic ring job kit and let it eat.

[rearwheelmaniac]

Originally Posted by glhs#116

The thing to understand about Qatar is how different it is. So, for example:



• About 90% of the population are non-locals like me on work visas - job finishes you have to leave. So very very few people actually maintaining stuff, still fewer doing any work themselves

• About 90% of those foreign workers are cheap labour living in camps, moving to work in work busses

• Amongst the local population those who are rich are very rich. Rich enough to simply buy complete shipped cars, engines and so on straight from top American workshops and restoration companies



So we have one big city, Doha. You can't drive out of Qatar without a special visa because the land border is with Saudi. And, since May 2017 you can't even do that with a visa because of this embargo. So what you don't find in Doha doesn't exist.



Doha has one "industrial area". It's all the dealer workshops, most of the independent workshops, company warehouses, etc. all lumped together. Junkyards are pretty empty because all old stuff gets sold for scrap and shipped out of country.



As for the workshops they are 99% doing maintenance for construction contractors. Price is king and labour is cheap and unskilled. And the guys come from a part of the world where you never expect to have the right parts, you just stick stuff together with what is at hand and your own ingenuity.



And apart from that there is the Al-Anabi Racing Club where some very rich locals who are into drag racing build money-no-object builds to set records and have the top equipment and some top foreign experts. So imagine there is one speed shop in a country you can't leave and their captive audience are uber rich customers who always just want the best at any price. The work is both unaffordable and unaccountable. Meaning if you want anything done they will charge you many times what it should cost and probably do it wrong because they have no competition and no interest in a small customer.



Welcome to the weird wonderful world of Qatar where you can buy Gucci or Dior in any mall but you can't find more than three grades of sandpaper for sale anywhere. So for stuff like balancing a crank (which needs to be done properly or it can make it worse) or align boring a block (which can ruin the engine if done wrong) there's simply nowhere that it makes sense to go.



Sorry for the long post but, as Dorothy once said, this ain't Kansas.



Sam

Install bearings, cam, oil pump, gears and chain. Get back to enjoying life. It will be fine.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[glhs#116]

Just a quick update. Still waiting on the crank from Paul but the block turned a corner today. Today I went from stripping down to building back. I got the rear plugs out and cleaned through the oil passages. I also drilled the hidden plug to lube the cam gear and stop that galley having a dead head.




Also put the soft plug in and the cam plug so the engine is ready to go back on the stand.


Sam

[gtospieg]

glad to see there is some progress in the right direction

[glhs#116]

So, since this seems to have all started from the cam and distributor gear going away I decided I wanted to see if I could check what kind of gear engagement pattern I was going to end up with. I also wanted to see if I had the cam bearings in the right positions. So I put the cam in with a little WD-40. Ended up putting the cam gear on with the bolt finger tight just to have something to pull it back out with.

I put the distributor in with the gasket and finger tightened the hold-down bolt. Then I turned the cam gear clockwise a little to set the load.


It was hard to see what the engagement looked like so I put blobs of grease on both gears and let the gears run through the grease.


Then I checked after pulling them out. To me it looks good.



One thing I found. I was being really careful and I still took some small chunks out of the cam bearings. I don't think it will affect anything but, man it's easy to do!

Sam

[glhs#116]

The other thing I started on today is my rings. I seem to have unintentionally ordered "file fit" rings. Lucky me!

According to the literature in the pack I should gap both rings at .0045 x bore. That works out around 0.019. I got Paul's advice and he said to run the second ring a little bigger. He said, with the heat, to therefore aim for around .021 top and .025 second. Well, my nearest feeler is .020 so I'm going to be going for .020 and .025. Just did rings for #1 today and man, that's a lot of filing. Especially the top ring which is thicker and seems to be of tougher material.

My filing jig:


Results:

[SA74SD]

Looks good. Make sure the filed edge has no burrs and that the gaps are consistent from the outer circumference to the inner when installed in the bore.

[dataway]

Looks like you have a good buddy there to help you out

[steve25]

Rings are a huge amount harder the the Pistons they ride in so on any ring you gave gapped. you also want to deburr the top and bottom leading edge of the rings so that when they spin in the ring groove they do not cut themselves a taller ring groove .
Failure to do or check this can have you in short order wondering why the motor has such blowby going on!

[glhs#116]

Originally Posted by steve25

Rings are a huge amount harder the the Pistons they ride in so on any ring you gave gapped. you also want to deburr the top and bottom leading edge of the rings so that when they spin in the ring groove they do not cut themselves a taller ring groove .
Failure to do or check this can have you in short order wondering why the motor has such blowby going on!

Thanks, Steve! I will double-check that and keep it in mind. I measured .003 vertical clearance for the top ring. My Total Seal insert says this should be .0015 - .003 so I'm already at the allowable limit. Don't want to make it any worse!

Sam

["QUICK-SILVER"]

Originally Posted by glhs#116

According to the literature in the pack I should gap both rings at .0045 x bore. That works out around 0.019. I got Paul's advice and he said to run the second ring a little bigger. He said, with the heat, to therefore aim for around .021 top and .025 second. Well, my nearest feeler is .020 so I'm going to be going for .020 and .025.

Gaps will open up a little when rings/cylinders get broke-in. Courser the cylinder hone is, the more the gap opens up. Opposite that for a slick race type hone. Break-in time takes a little while with the courser stones used in stock type rebuild/refresh. You also get more grey metal dust in the oil. I'd say that's the biggest reason to take it easy the first few hundred miles. Don't want the filter by-pass to open up with that grey dust in the oil. Race hone is pretty much 'ready to run' soon as you fire it up.

And what others have mentioned. Looking at the zoom on the ring gaps...pic appears those ends need a little more TLC. My little X use to buy nail files in bulk packs for me for this. Seems she didn't like her good ones getting used up.

Clay


[/QUOTE]

[adynes]

I wonder if this would be a good application for some of those King alecular bearings. Supposed to be good with cast cranks, deflection/misalignment, contamination, etc. Supposed to have a much thicker top layer than a tri-metal bearing, so can handle a little bit of wear. Silicon aluminum bearings seem to do pretty well in LS motors.

Also, is the Eagle 455 crank cross drilled like the stockers? If not, should he use a full or 3/4 groove main bearing instead of half grooved, or does it not really matter?

[glhs#116]

Originally Posted by adynes

I wonder if this would be a good application for some of those King alecular bearings. Supposed to be good with cast cranks, deflection/misalignment, contamination, etc. Supposed to have a much thicker top layer than a tri-metal bearing, so can handle a little bit of wear. Silicon aluminum bearings seem to do pretty well in LS motors.

Also, is the Eagle 455 crank cross drilled like the stockers? If not, should he use a full or 3/4 groove main bearing instead of half grooved, or does it not really matter?

Paul is prepping me a stock Pontiac crank. It will probably be ground to a first undersize or so but he will also provide the bearings. Said it was a better option than the cast Eagle new since the nodular crank is better material.

Sam

[HWYSTR455]

So you're running an HEI type distributor? Curious, what is the end play on that you are shooting for? You say there was a gear issue before?

I know this is going to rub some the wrong way, and I'm not going to challenge any recommendations, but personally, when I choose ring gaps, I always use the values for the first step on N2O as recommended by the ring manufacturer. Not only does that provide a margin of safety when it comes to ends butting, but if for some wild chance you want to run a shot in the future, you can do so without worry.

The nominal amount that the rings get opened up will not make any type of impact on performance or blow by, and will cover any 'abnormal' situations the engine may encounter during it's life. It's better to be a little on the wide side than having the ends butt.

.