[CraigGT37]

Thank you to all that have served.
I havent watched it yet,but have been downloading them to watch later. My father in law was there in 64-66, he would rarely talk about it, when he did it was with other vets from the VVA.
My wifes uncle just recently passed away and we have been tasked with cleaning out his house. In doing so we have found letters that her dad sent her uncle, and parents. To read the letters to his brothers, he talked about the way things were, and about what was happening. Some were very descriptive. The letters to his parents were very plain. He also sent some pictures that he had taken while there.

[Ben M.]

Insisting we should have just invaded or used heavier artillery and fought the commies where they stood in their homes is simplifying it considerably. Complaining about "hurt feelings" when you're killing hundreds of thousands of people?

That said, the majority of the problems we've seen since WWII on the era of Vietnam, the middle east, etc are all the results of the previous century's European imperialist policies that we ended up getting dragged into by countries who had no clue what they were doing besides exploiting resources and the native populations. Not that isolationism would have been a viable alternative, but the entire world situation is considerably more complicated and delicate than the majority of the population would like to believe...

[Stuart]

Don't forget the rules about politics in the lobby....no reason to get a civil discussion locked.

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by Scarebird

If we invaded the North the Chinese would have flooded in as in 1950.

No, the Chinese and Vietnamese have gone to war numerous times over the last 2,000 years. I guess you don't recall the 1979 invasion of Vietnam by the PRC? The Vietnamese sent the PRC packing back over the border with their tails between their legs. The Soviets actually considered going to war with the PRC because they were "requisitioning" nearly half of the combat supplies they (the Soviets) were sending to North Vietnam through China.

[77 TRASHCAN]

Stuart, I agree. Hopefully we all can keep the thread "clean enough"

FYI, the series isn't on tonight or tomorrow evening. I starts again Sunday afternoon at 1:00, I believe, replaying episodes 1-4, then showing episode 5 at. 7:00 PM.

There's so much potential negativity that could have been posted here, thank thankfully has not...

Is it perfect, well of course not.
Does it tell us a LOT of behind scenes stuff, yes.

I'd like folks to post their opinion of the series. I was born in 58 so I was way too young. One of my Dad's employee's at his Skelly gas station( in Eastern Iowa) was a chopper pilot, shot down and left for dead Twice by the enemy....he was never the same. He took his life in 1979.

One of my fellow Pontiac heads was a medic, for one year., in the army .The car manufacturers had programs that allowed you to order you car of choice, while serving. When you got back, they would fly you directly to the assembly plant to pick up your new car.
He ordered a 69 firebird, 400 RA III (didn't think he could afford the RA IV), TH400, PS, PB, no AC (lived in Iowa, and this thing was going to get raced), front disc brakes.
Well they couldn't get his car done for him to pick it up on arrival. He kept after them, they finally got it done.
I think the hold up may have been because he ordered it with a column shift automatic and a front bench seat...anyone ever see a 1st gen firebird with a front bench seat?

[Scarebird]

nonsense.

"China’s indirect role in Vietnam was even more massive and critical. It is now known that in a secret meeting between Ho Chi Minh and Mao in the summer of 1965, China agreed to enter the war directly if the United States invaded North Vietnam. As it was, China’s indirect involvement in Vietnam was its greatest military effort after the Korean War. According to Beijing, between 1965 and 1973, there were 320,000 Chinese troops assigned to North Vietnam, with a maximum of 170,000 – roughly a third of the maximum number of U.S. forces – in the south at their peak. On Sept. 23, 1968, Mao asked North Vietnamese premier Pham Van Dong, “Why have the Americans not made a fuss about the fact that more than 100,000 Chinese troops help you building railways, roads and airports although they know about it?”

https://www.legion.org/magazine/2132...nt-war-vietnam

[Ogre]

Originally Posted by locomotivebreath

... Although a decent documentary , there's plenty of errors on the facts . Another big one is the fallacy that monorities served/ Kia at higher rate in combat units -complete hogwash . ...

Many years ago the VFW compiled a rather detailed list of Vietnam stats. I believe they are "mostly" true. There may be some minor discrepancies, but at least the list was compiled without a political agenda.

Here are some numbers:

CASUALTIES:

The first man to die in Vietnam was James Davis, in 1958. He was with the 509th Radio Research Station. Davis Station in Saigon was named for him.

Hostile deaths: 47,378
Non-hostile deaths: 10,800
Total: 58,202 (Includes men formerly classified as MIA and Mayaguez casualties). Men who have subsequently died of wounds account for the changing total.

8 nurses died — 1 was KIA.

61% of the men killed were 21 or younger.

11,465 of those killed were younger than 20 years old.

Of those killed, 17,539 were married.

Average age of men killed: 23.1 years
Total Deaths: 23.11 years
Enlisted: 50,274; 22.37 years
Officers: 6,598; 28.43 years
Warrants: 1,276; 24.73 years
E1: 525; 20.34 years
Five men killed in Vietnam were only 16 years old.
The oldest man killed was 62 years old.

Highest state death rate: West Virginia – 84.1% (national average 58.9% for every 100,000 males in 1970).

Wounded: 303,704 — 153,329 hospitalized + 150,375 injured requiring no hospital care.

Severely disabled: 75,000, — 23,214: 100% disabled; 5,283 lost limbs; 1,081 sustained multiple amputations.

Amputation or crippling wounds to the lower extremities were 300% higher than in WWII and 70% higher than Korea.

Multiple amputations occurred at the rate of 18.4% compared to 5.7% in WWII.

Missing in Action: 2,338

POWs: 766 (114 died in captivity)

As of January 15, 2014, there are 1,875 Americans still unaccounted for, from the Vietnam War.

The entire analysis can be found here: http://myvfw.org/mo/post4238/nationa...e-vietnam-war/.

BTW I was one of the " 2,709,918 Americans served in Vietnam, this number represents 9.7% of their generation. " FAC, 19th TASS, Vung Tau & Quan Loi 70-71. I sincerely doubt the FAC/CAS mission will be covered by the Ken Burns documentary. It was quite interesting ...

Ogre

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by Scarebird

nonsense.

"China’s indirect role in Vietnam was even more massive and critical. It is now known that in a secret meeting between Ho Chi Minh and Mao in the summer of 1965, China agreed to enter the war directly if the United States invaded North Vietnam. As it was, China’s indirect involvement in Vietnam was its greatest military effort after the Korean War. According to Beijing, between 1965 and 1973, there were 320,000 Chinese troops assigned to North Vietnam, with a maximum of 170,000 – roughly a third of the maximum number of U.S. forces – in the south at their peak. On Sept. 23, 1968, Mao asked North Vietnamese premier Pham Van Dong, “Why have the Americans not made a fuss about the fact that more than 100,000 Chinese troops help you building railways, roads and airports although they know about it?”

https://www.legion.org/magazine/2132...nt-war-vietnam

You take an interesting spin on the issue of a U.S. led invasion of North Vietnam. Let's consider ALL the historical facts: the Sino-Soviet split was in full display in 1968. There had already been border clashes between PRC and Soviet forces in Manchuria. Also, you have to consider Ho Chi Minh's imminent death. The hatred between the Chinese and Vietnamese peoples is well documented. Additionally, consider that the PRC was in the depths of the Cultural Revolution. The military had been purged of any officer holding ideas differing from Mao (eerily similar to Stalin's purges of the Soviet military before WW2). These facts cannot be dismissed as "nonsense".

[hurryinhoosier62]

Probably not, Pat, but you have every reason to be proud of your service in the Republic of Vietnam. If I haven't said it before....Thank you!

[Ogre]

Thanks Steve. It was a job like my many others later.

But it was the only job I ever held that I felt my hands were tied. I'm sure a lot of others felt the same way. My gratitude to all who served, and my sincere, heartfelt thanks to all who made the supreme sacrifice.

In retrospect, I probably had more freedom to conduct my mission than a lot of others.

Ogre

[Bob Dillon]

Originally Posted by locomotivebreath

Another big one is the fallacy that monorities served/ Kia at higher rate in combat units -complete hogwash

Caught that myself.

[Scarebird]

Originally Posted by hurryinhoosier62

You take an interesting spin on the issue of a U.S. led invasion of North Vietnam...

What part of China would jump in with both feet if we invaded do you consider spin? Our national leadership at the time knew this as a fact, no doubt the CIA ferreted out the secret 1965 agreement and told them so. China and the Koreans are no friends, yet across the Yalu they went in 1950, and would do so again if we invaded North Korea now.

The second fact you conveniently ignore is we had no great desire to be in VN to begin with, and widening the war for such vaporous gains we had no stomach for. An invasion of NVN would have been political suicide and would have caused another magnitude level of civil unrest. If widening the war was such a great idea - why did Nixon draw forces down?

[rlfonad]

Great Series.

I lost 7 classmates from class of '65 in Vietnam, three were close friends. The war is still costing us good men!

In the past 5 years, two more took their own lives. The last one was about two years ago. I knew he was Army and had been wounded over there. After the loss, I spoke with his brother and found out he was an Army Corpsman and had been wounded 6 times in Vietnam.

We sure don't need another Korean War!

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by Scarebird

What part of China would jump in with both feet if we invaded do you consider spin? Our national leadership at the time knew this as a fact, no doubt the CIA ferreted out the secret 1965 agreement and told them so. China and the Koreans are no friends, yet across the Yalu they went in 1950, and would do so again if we invaded North Korea now.

The second fact you conveniently ignore is we had no great desire to be in VN to begin with, and widening the war for such vaporous gains we had no stomach for. An invasion of NVN would have been political suicide and would have caused another magnitude level of civil unrest. If widening the war was such a great idea - why did Nixon draw forces down?

You left out the FACT that by 1965 Ho Chi Minh's health was so precarious that he removed himself from the daily operations of government and war fighting. Additionally, name ONE agreement that Mao actually kept after the Korean War. Are you aware how horribly mauled PRA troops were in Korea? Their initial success was based on masses, not superior training. The first two ranks of any "human wave" were the only ones armed. The ranks behind were expected to pick up the weapons of their now dead or wounded comrades. The PRA made the same mistake that the NoKos made in 1950: they outran their ability to supply their forward troops. Why was the Vietnam War so unpopular? Could have anything to do with the FACT that the media was spreading what amounted to lies? Were you alive when Walter Cronkite declared the war "unwinnable" after Tet? I was. The U.S. has always had difficulties realizing wars can be long and costly. WW2 became unpopular; Korea was definitely unpopular. Couple the media's drumbeat that the war could not be won with Johnson/McNamara's total incompetence in waging war you had the recipe what what happened: a war lost at home, not on the battlefield. Here's an interesting fact: the JCS presented Johnson with a plan to completely paralyze the NVAs ability to conduct combat operations in S. Vietnam in 1964. Johnson rejected this plan and instituted Rolling Thunder (nicknamed Rolling Blunder by most of the Vietnam War era aviators and pilots I've known) in 1965. When Nixon wanted to withdraw U.S. forces from Vietnam but North Vietnam was balking, The JCS presented Nixon with what was essentially the SAME plan they presented Johnson in 1964. Nixon agreed to the plan and it was instituted in the spring of 1972. It was code named Linebacker. Ever heard of it? Linebacker 1 drove the North Vietnamese back to the negotiation table in Paris. When the North Vietnamese once again left the negotiations in Paris in November, 1972, Linebacker 2 was implemented. Within 30 days, the entire North Vietnamese economy ground to a halt, their supplies of SA-2 missiles were cut off and expended, electric generation capacity was severely degraded and Haiphong was mined to the point where no vessels could enter or exit that harbor.

[Bob Dillon]

Originally Posted by Ogre

BTW I was one of the " 2,709,918 Americans served in Vietnam, this number represents 9.7% of their generation. " FAC, 19th TASS, Vung Tau & Quan Loi 70-71. I sincerely doubt the FAC/CAS mission will be covered by the Ken Burns documentary. It was quite interesting ...

Ogre

Welcome home, Brother. "FAC in sight!"

As to the "minorities were cannon fodder" meme, I quit watching as soon as Burns repeated that lie. Minorities were 12.4% of the KIAs, almost exactly their participation rate.

Burns is an historian, and they seem to be invariably leftists, with the exception of Victor Davis Hanson.

Interesting quote:

"Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty.”

Pat, I know you know who said it, but the youngsters here probably don't.

[jusjay]

1966 to 1967 C 2/34 Armor.. M48A3 52 tons of romping stomping death.

[johnta1]

Interesting article on the VietNam war:

Why We Went To War

And of course Wikipedia:

Vietnam

[Ogre]

Originally Posted by Bob Dillon

Welcome home, Brother....
Interesting quote:

"Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty.”

Pat, I know you know who said it, but the youngsters here probably don't.

Welcome home, bro.

Yes Bob, very eloquent was JFK's inaugural address, but I still have to fault him, and his number one "whiz kid". While McNamara may have been a whiz at business functions, he knew little about deploying the military, and I seriously doubt he fully understood the Southeast Asia geopolitical situation and history.

When I first began (as a lowly zoomie in '64) receiving intel briefings on the "conflict", I still had a lot of doubts about what was to be accomplished except to stop the "domino theory" of Communist expansion. After four years it finally sunk in that was to be our mission. Seems a better defined military objective might have been crafted.

Ogre

[Scarebird]

Originally Posted by hurryinhoosier62

wall of text

Your contention was that an invasion of the North would have won the war - as stated before the administration knew this would bring China into the war and said as much, so it was off the table. If you believe China would not you are just fooling yourself.

You noted the human wave attacks by the Chinese in Korea - do you not think they would have done the same in NVN where they would have been that much more effective? And note the quality of fight the VC/NVA put up in the South - imagine the ferocity they would put up on their home turf; they would have NEVER given up.

[locomotivebreath]

Here's an interesting link . This info is available on dod & va sights and other sources but this link is easier . The ethniticity facts are easy to reference , although it shouldn't matter , as the blood was all red , it also shouldn't be miss represented . https://www.uswings.com/about-us-win...nam-war-facts/