[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by pastry_chef

Exactly correct!

Recall Jon Kaase and his Engine Masters 507 Pontiac that ran a 107 LSA cam.
http://www.hotrod.com/events/coverag...racing-engine/

In another Engine Masters Pontiac entry Chad Speier ported the KRE high ports.

Dan Barton has done amazing work on many Pontiac heads.

Yup, and Tony Bischoff is the man behind the scenes of all that McCarthy stuff, ram air V's etc...making some steam. Tony built a 571 Pontiac for my father and did all the port work on the heads as well as the custom cam and everything in between. That motor did (and has done) exactly what he said it would do.
You don't need a Pontiac specific builder to have a fantastic Pontiac engine. One look at Tony's track record at the EMC with various types of engines will tell you that.

[b-man]

Originally Posted by dataway

Based on previous advice here I'm leaning towards a Melling SPC-7.

Again ...stock build, .040 over, YS400 all original heads, intake, standard logs, compression looking like 9.9:1 (based on head volume with stock type valves ... so subject to change, 11cc dish), Auto trans, 2.93 open diff., power drums, AC.

Lifters - Johnson Hi-Lift ... R type

Valves will most likely be:

Ferrea F5143 intakes, and F5144 exhaust ... your basic performance replacement valve.

Springs: CC 988 1.384" dual spring, 125 @ 1.600, 240 @ 1.100, Coil bind 1.00 (as recommended by Butler)

OEM type 1.65 rockers .... RA type 7/16" studs

Anyone see any problem with this combo?
Thanks,

How did this thread get so far off track?

The OP is building a stone-stock 400.

Engine Masters?

600+ HP street engines?

A 571 cube street engine?

How is any of this relevant to the what the OP is asking about here in this thread?

[Formulajones]

It's all good B-man, no worries. I think after 4 pages the OP got the answers he was looking for. Besides, don't all these threads steer off in some direction eventually anyways?

[b-man]

It seems lately that a lot of threads here have been taken over by discussions that really have little to do with the original intent of the thread.

Let's all try to respect the thread starter and stay on topic.

Those of you who wish to discuss your own experiences building engines, running them on the engine or chassis dyno, with camshaft design or any other aspects of Pontiac street engines would do well to start your own threads to discuss these topics.

[Formulajones]

Naa, I think it's all relevant and good information, and I don't see the OP complaining. Matter of fact when I read through it all it appears he's made a pretty good decision and has a sense of direction now.

Yeah I agree though, these threads always steer off, especially when the subject of LSA, XE lobes, vacuum, and quite a few other things get mentioned, from there it's a downward spiral, lol. Been that way for a long time around here and I don't think that's going to change anytime soon.

[Drag Star Le Mans]

Originally Posted by b-man

How did this thread get so far off track?

The OP is building a stone-stock 400.

Engine Masters?

600+ HP street engines?

A 571 cube street engine?

How is any of this relevant to the what the OP is asking about here in this thread?

Thats just what happens but they come almost aways come around.

[dataway]

Originally Posted by b-man

It seems lately that a lot of threads here have been taken over by discussions that really have little to do with the original intent of the thread.

Let's all try to respect the thread starter and stay on topic.

Those of you who wish to discuss your own experiences building engines, running them on the engine or chassis dyno, with camshaft design or any other aspects of Pontiac street engines would do well to start your own threads to discuss these topics.

B-man, yes, as the O.P. I know what you mean. After a thread gets a couple of pages long it's easy to lose track of the original question, and stray into territory that has been covered before.

I appreciate all the info, and I learn from it. But yeah, for me, this is about building a GTO that feels pretty much the way it would rolling off a dealers's lot ... granted with a blue-printed, all to spec engine, but for the most part stone stock.

I absolutely can't wait to build a HP engine, but this is not the one, and it can get confusing sorting out all the info for those of us that are not well versed in Pontiacs. For me .... the challenge is building a "perfect" stock engine, a engine that it would be if the factory had a week to make it just right. Call me crazy ... but I will get a kick out of turning the key on a GTO that was almost exactly the same as it was in 1968

[dataway]

PS.

Huge thanks to all you guys, and your various opinions, knowledge and expertise. It's great that you take the time to help guys like me out ... I'd just be guessing otherwise.

[blykins]

Originally Posted by b-man

It seems lately that a lot of threads here have been taken over by discussions that really have little to do with the original intent of the thread.

Let's all try to respect the thread starter and stay on topic.

Those of you who wish to discuss your own experiences building engines, running them on the engine or chassis dyno, with camshaft design or any other aspects of Pontiac street engines would do well to start your own threads to discuss these topics.

I haven't been here very long.

So, if the "street forum" is only geared to engines that have to be completely bone stock repops of the factory stuff in every aspect, I'm unaware.

Otherwise, I'm an engine builder and it's my job to think outside the box and learn how to make things better in one way or the other. I spit out an average of 1-2 engines per month and I absolutely grit my teeth at doing something the same way every time. That's not how you learn.

If I see a trend on my engines that will carry over to some of the builds going on here and will improve driving manners or tunability, I feel the need to speak up.

Why not take an opportunity to make a "stone stock 400" potentially better than another "stone stock 400"? Obviously, dataman is detail oriented and would probably make a really sharp engine builder once he got some experience under his belt. I guarantee you that the engine assembly line at PMD didn't take time to degree the camshaft, check bearing clearances, etc, etc.

A well-thought-out build doesn't mean that it has to make more horsepower, or the cam has to be bigger, etc....it just means that thought is put into it, and if something needs to be "tweaked", then it gets tweaked.

To be honest, I don't offer suggestions with the expectation that I'll be jumped on by 3-4 different guys because "that's not how the factory did it". It just happens that way. However, I don't agree with a lot of the information that's being offered up here and I feel the need to speak my mind.

[Cliff R]

'I absolutely can't wait to build a HP engine, but this is not the one, and it can get confusing sorting out all the info for those of us that are not well versed in Pontiacs. For me .... the challenge is building a "perfect" stock engine, a engine that it would be if the factory had a week to make it just right. Call me crazy ... but I will get a kick out of turning the key on a GTO that was almost exactly the same as it was in 1968'


You are building a "high performance" engine. At 10 to 1 compression with an 068 camshaft our engine made 380hp completely "stock". That means no head porting anyplace, not even a gasket match at the intake gasket. There is nothing "low performance" about a Pontiac 400 engine done correctly with all factory components.

Matter of fact you may actually make LESS power pissing around with aftermarket "high performance" parts. By this I mean that you may end up with an engine that idles poorly, not nearly as smooth off idle, consumes huge amounts of fuel for normal driving, just to see a few more HP up near the shift point, while giving up gobs of power (torque) down in the normal rpm range that the engine will spend most of it's time in.

We specialize here in "stock" and "stock appearing", and have continued to run with and often outrun many aftermarket parts with factory parts, especially when we take the time to modify them to extract the very most power that we can.

Some of us put up very good information very early in this thread, before it got de-railed a bit. B-Mans early post was spot on for what you are doing, and unless you plan on being the one to test the waters here with these things, don't put 8 degrees of advance into a cam that works flawlessly where the factory installed it, just to see if it will help anyplace. At the factory ICL the 068 cam idles nearly dead smooth up near 10 to 1 compression, and has a power curve flat as Kansas in a well prepared 400 engine build. They don't need any help otherwise and one done correctly will put a smile on your face every time you blast thru the gears.......Cliff

[Formulajones]

I agree with you on that Brent. There are quite a few things in here that don't jive with the testing that I've done so I don't "follow the group" so to speak. I've had great success with things that most people hear are totally against, tight LSA being one of them. On the other hand, if you can read through all the mumbo jumbo there are bits and pieces of good information at times.

Yeah it's the street section and I'm with you on your point of view. Street means different things to different people, it certainly does not mean bone stock to me either, and I have no problem daily driving something that's a little rambunctious. I personally find that perfectly streetable.

It's all good, I'm glad Dataway was able to come away with some good information for what he wants to do.

[locomotivebreath]

To the OP : I built my 400 with help and advice from the folks around here . I too wanted a stock type engine for my stock 68 gto . I went with a small roller cam because of the flat lobe worries and I used ram air manifolds because one of my logs was cracked . The engine made over 400 hp & 480 lbft and idled with 16 inches of vac . The heads had a mild port job too . There's plenty of been there done that people on these boards in many different aspects of this hobby and they are willing to share that experience for free . I've been saved a few *** whippings and plenty of $$ by keeping my ears open around here .

[blykins]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

There are quite a few things in here that don't jive with the testing that I've done so I don't "follow the group" so to speak. I've had great success with things that most people hear are totally against, tight LSA being one of them. On the other hand, if you can read through all the mumbo jumbo there are bits and pieces of good information at times.

Yeah, I don't like the taste of Kool-Aid either.

[gtofreek]

Originally Posted by TedRamAirII

Well....if the wheel is round, how do you improve it? Sounds like Cliff has already done the research for all of us. Been there, done that, proven what works and what does not. Why waste time, money, and possible engine damage. nothing against you Brent, but you do mostly Ford, so arguing what a well established Pontiac engine builder / tuner know to be a fact isnt going to win any possible Pontiac Customers. I know, that I would follow the advice of a well established Pontiac Tuner.

Give me a break will you. So you are saying that Cliff knows more about building and camming engines than anyone else? Whatever. You can play follow the leader with him, but others will do what they know works.

[gtofreek]

Originally Posted by blykins

I hung my foot out the door to stop and mounted a Disney World water spray bottle on the dash.

!

[gtofreek]

Originally Posted by blykins

I already had a bottle. I keep it beside of my air-cooled Volkswagen antifreeze bottle and my bin of muffler bearings.

The more I read your posts, the more I'm liking you! LOL!

[TedRamAirII]

Originally Posted by gtofreek

Give me a break will you. So you are saying that Cliff knows more about building and camming engines than anyone else? Whatever. You can play follow the leader with him, but others will do what they know works.

I'm not saying Cliff is the All Knowing King of Camshaft Selection. But do you think he may know more than some people here? Maybe Brent has some good ideas? So let's see his Dyno Charts for Pontiac Engines he has built, that out do other engine builders for Torque and HP. Others may do what works, but how many are going to admit that their idea did not work, or just because they think it works, does not mean it works to the fullest potential. I know Dyno numbers are not everything, but they are the only baseline that we have, to judge one engine against another. Butt Dyno's just dont work.

[blykins]

If you think all dynos are equal, you'd be very surprised to learn the reality. If you wanted to compare engines that way, then we would have to all use the same dyno to get a good comparison.

Id be more concerned about the fact that there have been 3 professional engine builders that have posted in the two cam threads that have been active and all 3 guys have posted information totally opposite from what cliff has found.

I know why that is....and so does Paul K and Paul C.

[TedRamAirII]

Originally Posted by blykins

If you think all dynos are equal, you'd be very surprised to learn the reality. If you wanted to compare engines that way, then we would have to all use the same dyno to get a good comparison.

Id be more concerned about the fact that there have been 3 professional engine builders that have posted in the two cam threads that have been active and all 3 guys have posted information totally opposite from what cliff has found.

I know why that is....and so does Paul K and Paul C.

Well.....what good is that. Dynos that read different doesnt do anyone any good. I know if I have my Torque wrench calibrated, no matter where I go, I can torque a bolt, its going to be accurate. Its all opinion until I see numbers.

[blykins]

Originally Posted by TedRamAirII

Well.....what good is that. Dynos that read different doesnt do anyone any good. I know if I have my Torque wrench calibrated, no matter where I go, I can torque a bolt, its going to be accurate. Its all opinion until I see numbers.

Four different dynos will give you four different numbers and it's really not due to calibration, it's due to how the weather station is set up, where the dyno room air comes from, etc.

If you want to compare several builders, you put them on the same dyno....i.e. Engine masters challenge....