[craigs69]

Originally Posted by geeteeohguy

Well craig, I guess we'll have to agree to dissagree. What purpose is badging and painting a base car with the markings of an upscale car if NOT to deceive? The sole purpose is to make it look like the real thing...which is deception, pure and simple in my opinion. I can see your side, though, of having your dream car at a real world price to use as something to enjoy and drive. This is the main reason people clone rare/expensive models. To each his own.

I can agree to disagree without any heartburn. In a black and white world, you are absolutely correct and I see and respect your point. I will add, however, that I always reveal my car's original identity when asked if it's the real deal. Plus, I get to drive the hell out of mine without worrying about hurting the value!

[The Boss]

I picked up a 70 GTO convertible here on the board and cloned it into a Judge convertible for the simple fact that I could & why not? It didn't have a stitch of it's original drive train in it and it wasn't even the original color when I got it, but I thought it would be a fun exercise. I used a real Judge wing, glove box emblem and Formula wheel, added Ram Air to it, a hood tach, factory gauges, some Phoenix stripes, some Firestone Wide Ovals, did some paint work, replaced the door panels & the carpet, corrected some under hood & other interior items and voila, it was done.

You can be the Judge on whether I improved the car or not - It won't much matter to me how you feel about it, it was my car & it was a blast to drive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdw8viZ0dSk

[Greg Reid]

Originally Posted by geeteeohguy

Well craig, I guess we'll have to agree to dissagree. What purpose is badging and painting a base car with the markings of an upscale car if NOT to deceive? The sole purpose is to make it look like the real thing...which is deception, pure and simple in my opinion.

On that note, I'll stick my nose in here....I can see a very clear reason, other than to deceive, to do that. The owner likes it better than what he started with.
Your position assumes that people do what they do to their cars to shape the perception others will have of the finished product, but there are people who do their cars only for the pleasure that they themselves get from the finished product. In that case, they are not trying to deceive anyone but simply trying to please themselves.

[Chris65LeMans]

Last weekend, I was at an all-Pontiac show. There were at least 3 1965 GTOs, two white top, blue body '59 Bonnevilles, and only 1 LeMans.

[cabhop]

Originally Posted by GTOWAGON

just put a endura bumper on it with a flat hood and tempest badges

Agreed... I just cant get past that huge chrome bumper on the 68/9s.

[nytrainer]

Originally Posted by cabhop

Agreed... I just cant get past that huge chrome bumper on the 68/9s.

Pretty sure the 68 chrome bumper is the same & shape size as the endura bumper.

[b-man]

To the original poster, I'd keep your '68 Tempest Custom as originally built.

--------------------------------------------

Now personally, I'm a big fan of the '64 A-body cars. With that said, I have a '64 Le Mans convertible but I've really never been a big fan of the Le Mans trim on the '64s.

Since I have a couple of very nice '64 GTO hoods in my stash and a complete new set of GTO emblems this one will become a GTO.

Only because I like the cleaner look of the GTO trim (and the beautiful scooped GTO hood) compared to the Le Mans.

It's super-easy to make a '64 GTO out of a '64 Lemans, the tail lights and tail panel are the same. Just find a hood (not cheap or easy), fill some trim holes, add the engine-turned dash insert and there you go.

I personally would never cut up a '64 Tempest to make GTO, the tail panel and tail lights are completely different. Plus I really like the Tempest trim.

It all comes down to personal preference. I really couldn't care less what anyone else thinks about my cars or what I choose to do with them.

A '64 GTO clone done right brings good money and let's face it more buyers are looking for GTOs. There are buyers who are willing to settle for a cloned GTO because they can get them at a reduced price as compared to a real GTO.

And yes full disclosure about what the car really started out as would be an important part of the sales pitch, along with a PHS document to confirm that.

[FirebirdHank]

Originally Posted by b-man

Now personally, I'm a big fan of the '64 A-body cars. With that said, I have a '64 Le Mans convertible but I've really never been a big fan of the Le Mans trim on the '64s.

Since I have a couple of very nice '64 GTO hoods in my stash and a complete new set of GTO emblems this one will become a GTO.

Only because I like the cleaner look of the GTO trim (and the beautiful scooped GTO hood) compared to the Le Mans.

It's super-easy to make a '64 GTO out of a '64 Lemans, the tail lights and tail panel are the same. Just find a hood (not cheap or easy), fill some trim holes, add the engine-turned dash insert and there you go.

I personally would never cut up a '64 Tempest to make GTO, the tail panel and tail lights are completely different. Plus I really like the Tempest trim.

It all comes down to personal preference. I really couldn't care less what anyone else thinks about my cars or what I choose to do with them.

A '64 GTO clone done right brings good money and let's face it more buyers are looking for GTOs. There are buyers who are willing to settle for a cloned GTO because they can get them at a reduced price as compared to a real GTO.

And yes full disclosure about what the car really started out as would be an important part of the sales pitch, along with a PHS document to confirm that.

Very well said!
I am the owner of a '69 350 Firebird convertible. These are very easy to visibly clone into a much more desirable 400. All it takes on the outside is the "400" scooped hood with 400 callouts, a 400 callout on the deck lid and the front bumper arrowhead.
I really like the looks of the 400 hood but have no desire to do the whole 400 clone thing. I added the hood but with 350 callouts on it. I have been questioned at shows if it was available from the factory that way.
Another good conversation starter is the Formula-350 badge I added to the deck lid. I have heard people at shows tell their friends "haven't seen one of these for quite a while".
As long as you are not trying to deceive and profit from the changes "no harm, no foul".

[PontGuy]

I'm with Greg on this topic. Whatever you do to make it so you like the car is OK with me. But keeping the badges and original trim does has its moments.

At the Atlanta BOPC show last year there were at least a dozen or so GTOs there, but my car was the only Lemans. Less desirable on the sales block than a true GTO, but at this point nice Tempests and Lemans are becoming truly rare, at least in original trim. That adds novelty to them.

And you could say my car is meant to deceive, just the other way around. Sometimes at a traffic light someone next to me will call out and say "too bad its not a GTO." Then I step on the gas and dust them, regardless of what they are driving. To me that's more fun than having GTO badges on the car and explaining "well its not really a GTO."

[6TEE8GTO]

Originally Posted by cabhop

Agreed... I just cant get past that huge chrome bumper on the 68/9s.

Originally Posted by nytrainer

Pretty sure the 68 chrome bumper is the same & shape size as the endura bumper.

The '68 chrome bumper is very pleasing to look at, it's the '69 that IMHO has too large of a nose. (Being an Italian with a nose I hope I didn't offend any '69 Tempest or LeMans owners!)

Originally Posted by Greg Reid

On that note, I'll stick my nose in here....I can see a very clear reason, other than to deceive, to do that. The owner likes it better than what he started with.
Your position assumes that people do what they do to their cars to shape the perception others will have of the finished product, but there are people who do their cars only for the pleasure that they themselves get from the finished product. In that case, they are not trying to deceive anyone but simply trying to please themselves.

Well said Greg.

I think really for any Pontiac enthusiasts, by now most know how easy and simple it is to look at the vin thru the windshield for the 242. I'm kind of in the habit of doing that when I see certain years. You aren't going to fool anybody with a GTO clone as far as trying to pass a Tempest or LeMans off as a GTO (after 1966) save for cruising down the street. If some potential buyer didn't know to just look at the vin, they probably deserve to get duped. Now a Judge clone, that's a little harder to weed out as you don't know from the vin. With that said, it always comes down to what the owner wants. For example I have a '69 Judge spoiler on my '68 GTO. Some guys zero in on it and make comments. So what... It looks cool and it's my car... My very first car happened to be a '68 Tempest Custom, I'd like to see you leave it as is, but my opinion ain't worth a hill o' beans in this crazy world...

[360Rocket]

Originally Posted by geeteeohguy

Well craig, I guess we'll have to agree to dissagree. What purpose is badging and painting a base car with the markings of an upscale car if NOT to deceive? The sole purpose is to make it look like the real thing...which is deception, pure and simple in my opinion.

So then why don't they call it a 1970 Pontiac GTO Deception? Whats wrong with a tribute?

Deception is when you LIE about what something is to cover up its real originations, I think now it comes down to the owners attitude and integrity, not the vehicle itself. If you try and push it off as real or sell it as real THEN you may be a tool.

[Ron Landis]

if you can't own it...clone it! Folks ask me if my'64 Tri-Power four speed is REAL. I tell them that I don't believe it is...because it says "Lemans" on the title...(like every GTO does!) BTW...I traded a PHS documented Marimba Red four speed Tri-Power '64 GTO for this car...which was already "cloned". That car was tubbed and caged early on in its life and I doubt will ever be "restored". It DID,however, win top honors in "Modified" class at the Woodward show. Matter of personal preference...but I like what I see in the picture. Hood and stripe are nice touches.

[Ron Landis]

Originally Posted by 360Rocket

So then why don't they call it a 1970 Pontiac GTO Deception? Whats wrong with a tribute?

Deception is when you LIE about what something is to cover up its real originations, I think now it comes down to the owners attitude and integrity, not the vehicle itself. If you try and push it off as real or sell it as real THEN you may be a tool.

if you wanna get technical about it...why is adding the GTO option to a '64-'65 LeMans any different than adding ANY other option? If I put a tissue dispenser in my RA IV Judge...is it now a clone? What about a hood tach? It's simply adding an option...right? That ought to get 'em boiling. There was no GTO line of cars those years....merely options. BTW...I show my car in the "A-body" class at the GTOAA events...never tried to pass it off as anything but what it is.

[dataway]

I always think about it this way, I'd rather have a real Garnet, than a fake Diamond.

I bet there are more fake GTOs than there are nice original Tempests. Then again, who cares how many of anything there are if you like that hood scoop looking back at you through the windshield.

My first car was a 66 Tempest ... first thing I did was put a GTO hood on it. My number one motivation .... it looked really cool.

[Greg Reid]

Originally Posted by 6TEE8GTO

The '68 chrome bumper is very pleasing to look at, it's the '69 that IMHO has too large of a nose. (Being an Italian with a nose I hope I didn't offend any '69 Tempest or LeMans owners!

Agreed...the '68 chrome nose is almost elegant and much lighter than an endura/hideaway setup. A good, straight '68 chrome bumper is getting hard to find too.

[360Rocket]

Originally Posted by Greg Reid

Agreed...the '68 chrome nose is almost elegant and much lighter than an endura/hideaway setup. A good, straight '68 chrome bumper is getting hard to find too.

and by the looks of that background purchased here in Clearwater Florida at PJ's Auto World.