[warriors revenge]

record runs are always .015-.030 away from failure ;(

[BruceWilkie]

Originally Posted by Elarson

We're looking at all options. But the fuel pump is tuned to run at half engine speed and the oil pump runs at 57% engine speed.

Our problem this time....the Crowerglide centrifugal clutch doesn't disengage until the car slows down. So even though the engine isn't running, the car is still turning it.

Eric

Find a way to direct drive oil pump with fuel pump and reset pressure on the oil pump if need be??

At a crank speed of 10000 rpm the pump rpm would be 5000 rpm if run off the cam directly, vs 5700 with your belt.

Drive the mag off the crank at 50%.

If you have to run your belt drive pump, then you need a guide at all pulley entrances that will not allow belt enough room to come off or disengage teeth.(belts jump off at pulley entrances not after)

[Jack Gifford]

Maybe a combination of both of those suggestions- a belt guard and belt guides?
Since hindsight is so good- perhaps a blower belt guard that offers more containment?

[Region Warrior]

Originally Posted by mgarblik

Yea, the guys at LENCO think a single shim between .015 and .030" was the difference between a possible record run and this mess. That's the part that twists my stomach and keeps me up at night.

No doubt!
Just go's to show it happens to the best also.

[67GTO4SPEED]

Originally Posted by warriors revenge

record runs are always .015-.030 away from failure ;(

And a whole lot closer than that in most engine failures!

[mgarblik]

Got the engine out and taken apart today. Took about 10 hours to get to the point of making a preliminary report. No pictures yet. I will post some later in the week. It's hard to find a bright spot when looking at all these ruined parts, but there are a couple. The changes we made to piston to wall clearance seemed to noticeably improve the skirt wear, damage issues. Even though the crankshaft is damaged running at 10,200 RPM on a spindown not under power with no oil pressure, the damage is much less than our old wet sump system at 7500 RPM. I feel pretty confident if the damn oil pump belt would have stayed on, we would have no crankshaft damage other than grit and crap getting into the oil/bearings from the piston damage. Other than that, all pretty bad news.

Parts without major damage:
1. Engine block, (will need line hone, cylinder hone and 2 lifter bushings)
2. Front cover
3. Oil pan
4. Connecting Rods
5. Wrist pins
6. Valley cover

All other engine parts have severe to fatal damage

1. Cylinder heads, all valves ruined, titanium intakes, super alloy exhaust, all springs ruined, 5 combustion chambers with significant damage, 2 or 3 will require some welding, 8 seats damaged, special order and dimensioned copper beryllium, Estimate 100 hours to repair.

2. all lifters damaged, some can be rebuilt

3. 5 camshaft lobes damaged will require a regrind

4. 2 rocker arms ruined

5. 5 pistons had the tops above the oil land ripped-off the body of the piston, none of the 8 usable

6. New Crower billet crankshaft if not broken looks like it can be ground 10-10 and re-used

It's going to be tough to get this all fixed along with the root cause, the transmission in 3 weeks while working a full time job. Just have to see how it goes. Lots of damage in there.


By the way Jack, both belt guides and a belt guard are in the design phase now and will be on before we go back out. May not be the answer, but certainly won't hurt.

[PAUL K]

Wow! That really sucks! I hope things work out for you guys.

[67GTO4SPEED]

Originally Posted by mgarblik

Got the engine out and taken apart today. Took about 10 hours to get to the point of making a preliminary report. No pictures yet. I will post some later in the week. It's hard to find a bright spot when looking at all these ruined parts, but there are a couple. The changes we made to piston to wall clearance seemed to noticeably improve the skirt wear, damage issues. Even though the crankshaft is damaged running at 10,200 RPM on a spindown not under power with no oil pressure, the damage is much less than our old wet sump system at 7500 RPM. I feel pretty confident if the damn oil pump belt would have stayed on, we would have no crankshaft damage other than grit and crap getting into the oil/bearings from the piston damage. Other than that, all pretty bad news.

Parts without major damage:
1. Engine block, (will need line hone, cylinder hone and 2 lifter bushings)
2. Front cover
3. Oil pan
4. Connecting Rods
5. Wrist pins
6. Valley cover

All other engine parts have severe to fatal damage

1. Cylinder heads, all valves ruined, titanium intakes, super alloy exhaust, all springs ruined, 5 combustion chambers with significant damage, 2 or 3 will require some welding, 8 seats damaged, special order and dimensioned copper beryllium, Estimate 100 hours to repair.

2. all lifters damaged, some can be rebuilt

3. 5 camshaft lobes damaged will require a regrind

4. 2 rocker arms ruined

5. 5 pistons had the tops above the oil land ripped-off the body of the piston, none of the 8 usable

6. New Crower billet crankshaft if not broken looks like it can be ground 10-10 and re-used

It's going to be tough to get this all fixed along with the root cause, the transmission in 3 weeks while working a full time job. Just have to see how it goes. Lots of damage in there.


By the way Jack, both belt guides and a belt guard are in the design phase now and will be on before we go back out. May not be the answer, but certainly won't hurt.

Man, I hate to hear that! Hopefully you can get it put back together in time for your race.

[johnta1]

Sorry to hear of all the damage.

I feel pretty confident if the damn oil pump belt would have stayed on, we would have no crankshaft damage other than grit and crap getting into the oil/bearings from the piston damage.

Would an Accusump type setup helped?

[Elarson]

Originally Posted by johnta1

Sorry to hear of all the damage.





Would an Accusump type setup helped?

In theory, yes. But I did a little investigation and didn't come up with any guarantees that they would hold together at 300 psi. And if something let go, it would be an instant glut of oil under a rear tire and they would be looking for me on the spectator side of the guard wall.

Eric

[Robert C.]

Mike

Good news on the block. The cylinder walls are so thick and are the back bone of a IA II block. The pressure that they must see have to be out of this world high

If you have a drawing of something we can make for the guide, email it to me. I am glade to help with anything we can make.

Do you pull all the seats and guides and re-Heat Treat the heads after welding? Remember welding aluminum, the weld and area around it will anneal back to dead soft and will need to be conditioned back to T6 temper.

I guess it is like strapping yourself in a moving bomb, hoping that at the end of a 6 second run you can do it again. People need to understand that the cost to run a Nitro motor can be the biggest financial gamble in a racer career.

Mike and crew are doing it at their expense for our enjoyment. Any help that anyone can give them would be of great help. AP helps when we can and we are glad to be a part of their success in a small way with their project. I would hope the Pontiac community feels the need to give them a helping hand too.

These boys bring the needed attention to the Pontiac world and without them show casing the past we would be losing one of the best advertising venues we have. So send them a check or a pay pal donation. It would help them.

Just think if you went to see John Force you would pay $25.00. right? So if 250 people on this board sent them $25.00 bucks they would be able to fix the Motor alone.


Don't us think it, Do the right thing today.

[HotCat_63]

So where do I send my $25???

[Robert C.]

Mike,

Please post a pay pal or address as to where people can send in the donations.

I hope that we see more and more people doing this.

Thanks for you support. We all are on their team too.

[Mr Anonymous]

It's very tough and very rewarding to work on this beast. The heat generated in the Lenco during the clutch slippage/failure got it to a temperature that still required me to wear welding gloves when I took it out, about 45 min after the run.

And the smell? To quote the Ron Burgundy "Anchorman" movie: Like a turd covered in burnt hair.

[v869tr6]

Couple of seconds of the Boss Bird at the 3:20 in this video from the 70's
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nzkr4F_4Xlo

[T Syron]

I have the upmost respect for what you guys are doing. Your passion and persistence for this awesome race car is second to none. Just wondering have you ever considered setting the car up to run on alcohol instead of nitro?

Btw. I'd be in for $25

Good luck with the repairs,
Tom Syron

[BruceWilkie]

Originally Posted by Elarson

In theory, yes. But I did a little investigation and didn't come up with any guarantees that they would hold together at 300 psi. And if something let go, it would be an instant glut of oil under a rear tire and they would be looking for me on the spectator side of the guard wall.

Eric

Aircraft Hydraulic Accumulator comes to mind for 300+ psi certainty.

[77 TRASHCAN]

What percentage nitro do you run???

[mgarblik]

We run a tuning percentage of 90% nitro. We vary for track weather and other conditions per our tuner 4-5%. Our tuner, Jerry Newman has been tuning nitro cars since the 1960's, but this Pontiac and it's semi-wedge chamber has it's challenges. I started this thread because I thought it would give a real up-close and inside look at what it takes to run a Pontiac on Nitro for those who have never thought about it and the many people who came by our trailer and wanted to know what happened at Norwalk. We knew what happened, but after a fairly short look, we unfortunately knew we were done for the weekend. I want to again apologize to many fans and friends who didn't get to see the car run at all or saw only our 1 run. At least a good 1/8 mile. I also started this thread to showcase and highlight just how good the IA block is as well as some of the other parts we run in the car.
When the engine ran away on us due to trans problems, several cylinders had exhaust temps over 2000 degrees F. That's 8 inches down the header pipe folks! Can't imagine what the temps were in the cylinders with NO coolant. 50 lbs. of boost, 10,200 RPM and the block visually is fine. Of course I will inspect more later. Why did the piston heads separate from the skirts? Think of a hot knife cutting through butter. That's what happened. The top tool steel piston ring is glowing red hot, once the piston reaches 1350-1400 degrees, even with the hard anodizing, the rings just cut through the piston when it changes direction, especially at 10,200 RPM. The piston fragments did the bulk of the damage. Those tiny fragments get into absolutely everything. They cause lifter wheels to lock up ruining the cam, rocker arm bearings to fail, oil pump damage, bearing damage and so forth.

So what does a PERFECT weekend with this car look like? 3-4 fast runs. Valve adjustment every run. clutch adjustment every run and new discs every 2 runs, 25 Gallons of oil, yes, gallons. 50 gallons of nitro@ $20.00 per gallon. When we get home, new bearings throughout, new piston rings, light touch-up hone, clean-up valve seats, replace a few springs. That's a PERFECT Weekend.

A more typical weekend for us is all the above plus a torque plate hone, new pistons, a few new valves, 8 or more new valve springs, 3 new clutch discs and 1 or 2 floaters. We can still operate with this level of chaos and make 4-5 events a year.

Bob at All Pontiac made the post asking for support of our program. It is true that we have been running mostly out of pocket since our sponsorship with ASE (Automotive Service Excellence) went away several years ago after 17 years. What a great run that was and it allowed us to run a big schedule and travel all over the country except the far West. This thread was not started to raise money or have people feel sorry for us. When you run nitro, this is part of the deal and normal? However, since Bob set the stage, if anyone feels they would like to help, we are not in a good position to turn down the help. Eric is the Pay Pal type of guy and will have to provide the details which I am sure he will very soon. We don't want anyone to feel obligated to help us get
back on the track, it will happen. But as Bob said, we are doing this for ourselves as well as the Pontiac community. I have said it before, but this car is close to running a big number, but everything has to be just right and the stars have to align.
Plan to do more cleaning tomorrow, take the heads fully apart, mag the crankshaft and take some pics. They will be posted soon. Thanks everyone.

[BruceWilkie]

Originally Posted by Robert C.

Mike


If you have a drawing of something we can make for the guide, email it to me. I am glade to help with anything we can make.

I don't have a drawing but I solved a belt toss problem with an oilite bushing on a bolt. I set clearance to just see light between bushing and bolt. Made a bracket to mount the bolt to from thick piece of angle iron, then placed it as close to water pump pulley entrance as I could. IMO keep it simple. No need for anything elaborate.

All I needed as belt was staying in tension after pump and altenator. When motor revved, you would see belt dance (unload tension?) up near water pump pulley entrance. A few of my friends solved their belt issues the same way after I scrounged up oillite bushings for them.