[TedRamAirII]

If the drill has a hard time turning the pump, its making pressure. Now where is the oil going? thats the question. Loosen the filter and see if its getting there. There should be a port on the filter housing, at least loosen it and see if oil flows out. You say you had it running before, whats different now? has the filter housing been removed and put back on? Do you have blockage and you are just by passing at the pump relief valve? I would do as much as possible before pulling anything apart. You want to know where to look for the problem BEFORE you disassemble anything.

[GT182]

Oil pump might act like it's working..... but could be it's not. Seeing the engine is out, install a new one. Better safe than sorry later on.

[jimib]

Originally Posted by Ron Genovese

Jim, Sorry to hear, but at this point there is something more going on here. Trust me when I tell you that 20 minutes is ridiculous.. One to two minutes max and you should feel very noticeable resistance. Did you pull the pump to install the new drive rod, or did you install from the top? If from the top, are you positive it is engaging with the oil pump drive? Some shafts have nubs on them that would make them impossible to seat from the top without grinding the nubs off. Are you definitely rotating your drill counter clockwise?

Ron: I did in fact remove the oil pump to install the oil pump shaft and re-installed the oil pump to correct a mistake I made years ago. Back then when I rebuilt this motor, I grinded off the nubs and dropped it in from top. This caused added difficulties when installing a distributor. Hence the reason that during this ground-up resto, I bought a new shaft and installed it the correct way along with basic gaskets.
I am certainly rotating the shaft with the drill counter clockwise and feel resistance. I installed an oil gauge today in the threaded hole next to the distributor. The needle on the gauge didn’t even quiver. I loosened the oil filter (now) on the block and oil began leaking out. I installed this dry, so I guess oil was pumped there.

[jimib]

Originally Posted by fyrffytr1

In your original post you said the oil pump was working so something is wrong somewhere else. Did you pull the stock filter off to see if any oil was in it?

Yes, I did. When I had the remote oil filter setup, I removed the hoses from the oil filter mounted in the engine bay area at this time. I put the loose ends of these hoses in a coffee can and with only 3 seconds of cranking, it pumped ½ quart of oil in to the coffee can. That’s why I think the pump works.

[jimib]

Originally Posted by fyrffytr1

In your original post you said the oil pump was working so something is wrong somewhere else. Did you pull the stock filter off to see if any oil was in it?

Yes, I did. When I had the remote oil filter setup, I removed the hoses from the oil filter mounted in the engine bay area at that time. I put the loose ends of these hoses in a coffee can and with only 3 seconds of cranking, it pumped a ½ quart of oil in to the coffee can. That’s why I think the pump works.

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by tom s

Pour some STP in all the rockers and fire it back up.Let it run for a few min and then pull the covers and see if you have fresh oil up there.Tom

The engine has been running!Should not be a issue to start it again.He had oil thru the oil lines.Might just have been lifters that had not pumped up yet.Tom

Question: Do you really think an employee stood there for about half an hour priming a new Pontiac engine before it was first started? Bonus question: Do you really think the Butlers or Kaufmans stand around with a drill for 20 minutes?

I use an old Craftsman 3/8" drill for priming because I don't see any reason to use my good DeWalt. There's a pressure gauge screwed into the hole by the distributor, and I prime for about 20 seconds after the drill loads up. I know my gauge needs to read about 65psi with the old drill and the break-in oil I use, and if it does the engine is ready to come to life. Not that it matters, but how much assembly lube do you have left on the bearings after 20 minutes of flushing? Why use assembly lube at all if it is going to end up in the pan before the engine first fires up?

These above quotes make the most sense to me if I were in your position.

I've seen it take 2-3 minutes to pump up hydraulic lifters after starting an engine for them all to fill up and pressurize the whole system so that oil is spurting out at all the rocker arms. The important thing is the bearings need to have oil during this time, which is the reason to watch an OP gauge.

As Tom said a little STP on the rockers will suffice until oil reaches all the rocker arms, if you chose to start it and wait for oil to reach the rocker arms.

I have seen new oil pumps with trash in the relief which will still give you oil volume but no pressure. I never assume that the oil pump is perfect without disassembly before installing one. This could be why the oil gauge shows 0 but your still getting oil volume and it's filling the filter etc.

If the engine is out already a no brainer to pull the pump apart and check for trash in the relief valve. Until you eliminate that possibility I would hold off actually starting the engine. If it's in the car I'd take a chance of starting it up and if you don't have oil pressure in 5 seconds shut it down and start the elimination process.

That's my 2 cents if it were my car.

[fyrffytr1]

Is it possible that when you removed the remote filter something blocked the passage from the filter to the block?

[Ron Genovese]

[QUOTE=Sirrotica;5294346]

I have seen new oil pumps with trash in the relief which will still give you oil volume but no pressure. I never assume that the oil pump is perfect without disassembly before installing one. This could be why the oil gauge shows 0 but your still getting oil volume and it's filling the filter etc.

At this point, this is what I would be looking at also.

[tom s]

Has a gauge been hooked up yet?Did not read that it had?Tom

[jimib]

Yes, I hooked a gauge next to the distributor and the needle doesn't even tremor. Will work on this issue on the weekend.

[jimib]

I used Lucas Heavy Duty Engine Stabilizer and poured it over all 16 rockers, started the engine for 20 to 30 seconds and did this in 6 or 7 intervals. Regrettably no oil is coming up through the push rods; although, I can see them spinning. This oil seemed to work well as I didn’t hear any unsettling noise while the engine was running.

My next plan of trouble shooting will be to remove the oil filter from its stock location, attach the oil hoses from the Summit Racing oil filter relocation kit (my replacement) without the filter and see if oil is ejected. When I did this a while back, the oil pump appeared to be working just fine.

I’m running out of trouble shooting options; I think the bottom line is that the engine has to come back out, analyzed and primed while on the engine stand. This is a bummer but it is what it is.

Happy Halloween all and thank you for your assistance.

[Old Goat 67]

[GT182]

Yep, keep on lookin Jim. You'll find the problem.

[jimib]

I’m still tormented by this problem, so I removed the engine and have it on a stand.

I removed the front and back oil galley plugs and maybe this wasn’t necessary. The trouble shooting I’ve done appears to be a blockage somewhere in the oil galleys since no oil comes up to the rockers.

I took a flexible steel cable and inserted down the oil pressure gauge hole that is next to the distributor; it only goes down 5 inches. At this point I think the passage angles towards the direction of the passenger side.

Next, I removed the oil filter bracket and inserted a solid copper wire (white shield in pic) in the lower hole and it went in 5 inches which matches the lower vein-like formation in the block which is 5 inches.

Then, I inserted a screwdriver in the upper hole and it only went in 3 inches but this upper vein-like formation in the block is 8 inches. I shined a light in there and something did not seem right but all I had was a dim light.

Any ideas?

[Sirrotica]

I've run into a problem similar problem once on a 2.5 iron duke and used a rubber tipped blow gun and checked for air at the far end of the galleys to confirm that they were open. Found a blockage in the lifter galley using that method.

[rohrt]

Guy I know found a huge chunk of RTV in his block. Starved half of the engine. It was a mess.

sounds like you on the right track.

[6 Grrrs]

Any chance the oil galley plug behind the soft plug wasn't installed?

Has oil pan been pulled? Was the pickup still on the pump?

When this engine was rebuilt, were all passages cleaned before assembly?

[jimib]

The old oil pump shaft (with tabs grinded off) was in the top hole behind the oil filter bracket. I had no clue it was there when I assembled the engine.

Here’s what probably happen.

There are many kids in my neighborhood of all ages. The kids come over to my garage on a regular basis and borrow tools to fix their bikes and they do so at the garage-driveway threshold. I’m known as the “go-to” guy for tools and to help them. They also come over to use my basketball hoop. The 16 to 22 year olds do the same since they can only afford cheap cars (I used to be there). I often leave my garage unattended for hours while I’m in the house, back porch or pool. I have no reason to believe anyone of these kids had the intent to be malicious. There is one kid (7 years old) though I often have to tell him what “not” to do such as “Stay away from that, it can burn you”, “Don’t go under the car” and so on. He’s a good kid, just a busy body. But I have no proof he’s the culprit.

I'll start assemble when the gaskets and freeze plugs arrive.

[rohrt]

Originally Posted by jimib

The old oil pump shaft (with tabs grinded off) was in the top hole behind the oil filter bracket. I had no clue it was there when I assembled the engine.

Here’s what probably happen.

There are many kids in my neighborhood of all ages. The kids come over to my garage on a regular basis and borrow tools to fix their bikes and they do so at the garage-driveway threshold. I’m known as the “go-to” guy for tools and to help them. They also come over to use my basketball hoop. The 16 to 22 year olds do the same since they can only afford cheap cars (I used to be there). I often leave my garage unattended for hours while I’m in the house, back porch or pool. I have no reason to believe anyone of these kids had the intent to be malicious. There is one kid (7 years old) though I often have to tell him what “not” to do such as “Stay away from that, it can burn you”, “Don’t go under the car” and so on. He’s a good kid, just a busy body. But I have no proof he’s the culprit.

I'll start assemble when the gaskets and freeze plugs arrive.

WTF!!!

I don't know whether to laugh or cry at that. In any regard. Good find.


Time to button it back up. If that is a flat tappet cam you might want to re-coat the cam with the break in lube.

[TedRamAirII]

Holy Sheet. So that rod can go all the way in? I never knew that. Who would have ever checked that? Glad you found it. A serious butt whuppin is in order.