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#1
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what was the most starter shims you have used?
I just converted the green '71 from auto trans to 4 speed.
i'm up to 4 shims and still grinding. I've never used more than 2 before this. the starter (mini) works fine but is noisy, and I can see some wear on my flywheel. so what is the record for most shims used in one install? digging for more shims... |
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#2
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I've used 8 shims for years w/no issues. This is w/a OEM starter.
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#3
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I , also have never used more than two.
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" Is wearing a helmet illegal" Mike Kerr 1-29-09 |
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#4
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Don't forget that shims come in different thicknesses. Just re-shimmed a starter for a friend and used only one - but it was a .045" thick shim to get the necessary clearance.
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Mick Batson 1967 original owner Tyro Blue/black top 4-speed HO GTO with all the original parts stored safely away -- 1965 2+2 survivor AC auto -- 1965 Catalina Safari Wagon. |
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#5
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If spacing is the issue, to a point, what difference does it make? I'd see what it took to make it work.
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frittering and wasting the hours in an off hand way.... 1969 GTO, 455ci, 230/236 Pontiac Dude's "Butcher Special" Comp hyd roller cam with Crower HIPPO solid roller lifters, Q-jet, Edelbrock P4B-QJ, Doug's headers, ported 6X-8 (97cc) heads, TKO600, 3.73 geared Eaton Tru-Trac 8.5", hydroboost, rear disc brakes......and my greatest mechanical feat....a new heater core. |
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#6
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The factory starter on my car was shimmed a LOT, don't know how many...carry on...
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1977 Black Trans Am 180 HP Auto, essentially base model T/A. I'm the original owner, purchased May 7, 1977. Shut it off Shut it off Buddy, I just shut your Prius down... |
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#7
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I have used either ZERO or ONE shim as my blocks have always been Manual Transmission Coded Blocks. Auto Blocks seem to need a variety of starter shims.
So I guess I am out of the running for the RECORD. Tom V.
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"Engineers do stuff for reasons" Tom Vaught Despite small distractions, there are those who will go Forward, Learning, Sharing Knowledge, Doing what they can to help others move forward. |
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#8
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Six shims here, with the same equipment...
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#9
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My old 428 required so many that I made a custom thick shim and added a couple thin ones to it. Can't remember this many years later how thick it was, but it was made from a piece of flat stock.......Cliff
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If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read this in English, thank a Veteran! https://cliffshighperformance.com/ 73 Ventura, SOLD 455, 3740lbs, 11.30's at 120mph, 1977 Pontiac Q-jet, HO intake, HEI, 10" converter, 3.42 gears, DOT's, 7.20's at 96mph and still WAY under the roll bar rule. Best ET to date 7.18 at 97MPH (1/8th mile), |
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#10
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This surprises me just a bit.
1. I wouldn't expect much difference in the automatic- versus manual-coded blocks. If there's a difference, I bet it's in the runout or the actual diameter of the flywheel/flexplate--with the flexplate being less-precise. 2. There are a flood of "Brand New!!!" starter motors, of generally low-quality Chinese sourcing. No telling how accurately they've machined the starter motor case-to-block surface. Considering they can't get crankshafts and rods properly machined, they maybe don't even try when cutting a mere starter motor. 3. I don't ever remember an original starter with more than one shim. I have seen "half-a-shim" under one or the other bolts, to tilt the starter into or away from the ring gear. |
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#11
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I'm a little surprised too. I have never needed to use a single shim on any of the pontiac engines I've run. Currently no shims in the bird either with a stock OEM starter.
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#12
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Quote:
Would be interesting to do a survey with a old GM Starter and a group of "Knock Off" GM starters and see the difference. Tom V.
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"Engineers do stuff for reasons" Tom Vaught Despite small distractions, there are those who will go Forward, Learning, Sharing Knowledge, Doing what they can to help others move forward. |
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#13
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Some mini starters will actually sit the starter drive next to the ringgear, instead of under it, so no matter how many shims you put in or take out, you never make it any better. If the drive is next to the widest point of the ringgear, it won't work. This is only one reason why I don't like mini starters. They were not designed for our engines by an actual engineer. Most are just plates machined by some guy that thinks they know what they are doing and bolt it to a Toyota or Nissan starter. Some are good, but most have issues in one way or another.
BTW, When I used to do starters for a living, I have seen lots of shims in there. That's why we always called them Pontiac shims.
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Paul Carter Carter Cryogenics www.cartercryo.com 520-409-7236 Koerner Racing Engines You killed it, We build it! 520-294-5758 64 GTO, under re-construction, 412 CID, also under construction. 87 S-10 Pickup, 321,000 miles 99Monte Carlo, 293,000 miles 86 Bronco, 218,000 miles |
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#14
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My TH400 equipped '67 GTO has needed about 6 shims with every starter it's had since 1983, which is about 3 starters. The current GM starter has been in place since 1988, and is still doing fine. My stick cars never needed any shims at all.
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Jeff |
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#15
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Quote:
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#16
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Never more than 2 here?
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#17
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So how do you know if your starter needs shims? I dont have any in mine. 73' 455 block, centerforce flywheel, RobbMC starter. Car starts fine with no noise or weird stuff going on......should I be checking something?
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-1967 GTO HO Restomod. PKMM 433ci, SilverSport T56 Magnum 6spd, Moser 9", SC&C and a bunch of other pro touring goodies - Build Thread http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...615847&page=23 |
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#18
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Like Tom, typically blocks for manual trans. applications are much closer than those for auto trans cars. Typically 1 or 2 shims of .015-.045 total. But several factors effect this interface. Pan rail machining, multiple trips to the line hone, poor tolerance on the flex plate or flywheel and finally the machining of the starter nose cone. That's why they make the shims, thankfully. There is a way to measure what shims you need exactly, easy to do with engine out of car, not so easy with it in, but doable. I do this before installation, and the starter is quiet EVERY time. 1. Install the starter with the solenoid removed. 2. Use your hand and manually move the plunger to engage the starter drive in the flywheel teeth. 3. Use a wire gauge or a large paperclip and unbend it. Not a little paper clip but one that is about 1 1/2 inch long. The wire diameter should be .030.040. 4. Slip the wire between the starter drive tooth and the root of the flywheel tooth. 5. If it slips in, you are done, no shims. If it does not, add shims until it slips in. It's that simple. That is the factory Pontiac method and it works great. Really doesn't matter how many shims you need. Good luck.
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#19
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No, you would hear the problem, if you had one...
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1977 Black Trans Am 180 HP Auto, essentially base model T/A. I'm the original owner, purchased May 7, 1977. Shut it off Shut it off Buddy, I just shut your Prius down... |
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