[RAII 4-speed]

I was looking thru the catalogs of suppliers for repop parts for our cars and found many item being repoped incorrectly and thought I would start this thread.
First item is the Battery hold down I have seen 2 different repops and they are both wrong VS an original.
The most common used has 2 round washers and the original has a star washer and a round washer.
I have also seen one that looks close that does have a round washer and a star washer, But the star washer has less teeth on it then the original.
I am lucky enough to have an original car and speak to a fellow member here often who also has an original car ( both 65's) and we have seen multiple items repoped wrong and we wonder if the makers actually think they are correct.
attached are a few pics of the battery hold down on my 65 original car.

[Andre]

The reproduction market has learned that 90% of the people will be satisfied with parts that are fairly close. The other 10% has to chase original and NOS parts. Surely they could have made the effort to get it done correctly, but then no one would want to pay $50 for a battery hold down kit. Its all about the $$.

[8LUG]

Originally Posted by Andre

The reproduction market has learned that 90% of the people will be satisfied with parts that are fairly close. The other 10% has to chase original and NOS parts. Surely they could have made the effort to get it done correctly, but then no one would want to pay $50 for a battery hold down kit. Its all about the $$.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1964-1965-PO...9a65b2&vxp=mtr Yea, this one all about the money. really! Capital One commercial"WHAT's in your wallet", 64 Pontiac, WHAT'S under your hood. John

[geeteeohguy]

The fact that any repop part actually FITS is a big plus in my book. Usually, the parts don't fit and don't work correctly. Repop is absolutely my last option, and this goes for all makes and models. 99 year old Hyatt bearings on my Ford model T are superior to the brand new ones, and it goes on and on.

[Andre]

I'm a bit surprised that this post has not gotten many comments. Maybe my estimate of 90% is closer to 98%?

[RAII 4-speed]

Originally Posted by Andre

I'm a bit surprised that this post has not gotten many comments. Maybe my estimate of 90% is closer to 98%?

I agree with you, I am surprised as well.
I thought it would be good to show what original parts were VS repop as so few original cars are left.

['ol Pinion head]

Originally Posted by Andre

I'm a bit surprised that this post has not gotten many comments. Maybe my estimate of 90% is closer to 98%?

Out of respect for our host and other repro suppliers, I'd bet many people are holding back. Many folks also don't comment because they are not restoring 64 or 65's, which this topic is listed under. In the genre of Pontiacs that I'm restoring, have a long laundry list of poor qualiy reproduction parts I've come across & will NOT use. Having been in the hobby a long time, have been fortunate to amass a deep supply of nice original detailing pieces. Never been a flipper/ builder so don't have to worry about running out of nice original pieces for my own projects. Just another perspective.

[chrisp]

Would love permission to give you my opinion of 98% of the Pontiac repo. items available . Seems like Mopar / Corvette / Chevy & Ford have nicer repo. items than the Pontiac world does . If making a part why not make it correct ? Oh it costs more BS , all is made overseas , not in the USA . Have a Buis. friend that has been in the Camaro repo. buis. since early 80s. and his parts are nice , if not very close to OEM . Overseas has quality companies & ****ty companies both are very inexpensive labor to manufacture . Have another Buis.friend that makes machine guns & parts for them and his stuff is nice as well , if i told you the cost to make the items you would not believe me .

['ol Pinion head]

Like any old vehicle line that has some popularity, there is often a need for restoration parts. The quality of those repro parts can range from poor to excellent. There are quite a few A-body & F-body reproduction Pontiac parts, I've examined, compared to originals, used myself, or hands on examined being installed on friends, aquaintances, & customers cars. Most were very nice and would show well on any driver showcar and some case higher level true Concours restored cars, there is also a lot of medioocre quality pieces. in some instances, the cost to reproduce correctly is extremely high, China, or not. Chris, do you see Chinese producers building investment quality dies and having qualified individuals to be able to take random samples and ck fit and finish? Very rare.

In the Chevy ranks, have personally run across a wide spectrum of repro parts that there is no way I'd use any of them. Cheap repro sheet metal with poor lines, consoles that were made of junk plastic that would not hold up to heat; ie, heat from direct sunlight in a local repro parts joint's showroom window... actually distorted the plastic. Tail light lenses that turned pink in just a few years on garaged seldom driven car. Poor definition low pressure die casting emblems, a few repro trunk lids, so poor ...they were suitable for a derby car, junk bumpers, junk trim rings... could go on & on, all it takes is a trip to a swapper with local buddy who has has owned a real 69 Z-28 since the Nixon era.

In the Pontiac circle, we all know there are a few corner cutter repro mfg'ers. One quick to market prolific parts repro source in particular. Nearly every part his company has introduced, I've always examined or had a very knowledgeable friend examine before purchasing. Being quickest to market, recouping investment quickly, may be good short term business wise, but putting a mediocre part on the market, is not something many of us appreciate. Unfortunately, in the restoration ranks ( use the term restoration in aloose fashion) there are the corner cutting types, and the slam it together quick crowd. Many of them shop by price & price only. As a bunch, I usually have little patience with either. If that's the 90%, they get what they deserve. Break is over, got to get back to work

[8LUG]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/63-66-Pontia...5b0aeb&vxp=mtr ANOTHER CASE OF A REPOP GONE WRONG

[Andre]

As an example of a good repo part- the '64-7 battery tray. Its not exactly the same as an original. and while the deviation from original is obvious it you know what you are looking for, its conceivable that GM would have okayed it if a supplier was producing it for them back in the day. If we approached the subject with that perspective, I think the number of acceptable parts for a assembly line procedure is high. However we are able to mull parts over in our hand and study and compare and look for imperfections. This is quite a different approach.

[Dick Boneske]

There are many repro parts that fit well, look original, and are readily available. Examples I can think of are the '64 GTO/LeMans tail lamp and gas door pieces, GTO badges for rear quarters, trunk, and grille, seat covers and door panels from PUI or Lengendary, carpet sets, headliners, Tripower air cleaners, Tripower fuel lines & fittings, Tripower waternecks, valve covers, window glass (available with markings as you wish), shifter boots & plates, plug wire sets, plug wire holders, washer nozzles, plastic washer bottles, various ribbed hoses, engine paints, fan clutches, motor mounts, pedal covers (accelerator, brake, clutch, & e-brake), weatherstrip sets, trunk mats, and many more. Some of the sheet metal, fasteners, fans, hoses, etc. are not of the quality we'd like.

There are A LOT of parts not available as repro or hard to find used or NOS that we often need. The '64 shifter lever is one, air cleaner foam with the AC logo, vacuum linkage parts, correct fasteners, etc. I often wonder if the current list of good repro parts will expand or if we have reached the peak of availability.

Yes, there are some repros that are not of the quality we want, but have you ever considered how we would restore our GTO's without these parts? NOS parts usually cost much more than repros, but are no longer NOS when installed.

[ron cozzo]

Repro 64 hood insulator bracket is very different from original. It'll work, but can be spotted as wrong from 10ft away. Unfortunately once a crappy part comes to market, there's no market for another good repro.

[ANDYA]

What I can never figure out is that we are trying to copy 45-50 yr old manufacturing techniques using modern equipment. You would think that repro parts could be made 100% like original fairly easily, instead the quality is never as good as original.

[FASTGOAT66]

Repop parts from China are more about profit than Quality or correctness. The Prices are outragous and most of the time are'nt a direct fit. But people settle on them instead of sending it back. Most parts are made in China for 20 cents and they ask $50.00. If only they cared about the quality like they do about asking alot of money for each part. Sad we live in a Disposable world were nothing is quality anymore, but they want big money from you. I can't say all the parts are bad some have worked ok for me.

[8LUG]

Originally Posted by FASTGOAT66

Repop parts from China are more about profit than Quality or correctness. The Prices are outragous and most of the time are'nt a direct fit. But people settle on them instead of sending it back. Most parts are made in China for 20 cents and they ask $50.00. If only they cared about the quality like they do about asking alot of money for each part. Sad we live in a Disposable world were nothing is quality anymore, but they want big money from you. I can't say all the parts are bad some have worked ok for me.

Food for thought: GM restorations parts which is run by Equity management in Mi. is not doing a good job allowing these items be made poorly. Seems like GM just wants the money to give it the stamp "GM restoration part" .

[geeteeohguy]

The rub is, sometimes is reproduction or no part at all. I guess it's better to have a part available than nothing, even if the part is inferior to original. Most of these parts were not available 35 year ago when I started in Pontiacs. It was the junkyard for parts, and the cars were plentiful. Now those cars are gone, or being restored. Most of the cars I see on this forum that are undergoing restoration are in far worse shape than the junked cars I pulled parts off of in the '70's-'80's. Add to that, in 30 more years, the need for the reproduction parts will be almost nil: most of us will be out of the game, and just about all the restorable Pontiacs will have been restored by then. The need for repro parts for these cars will diminish as time goes on, in my estimation. So that leaves even less reason for parts mfgrs. to step up on the tooling, etc.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by 'ol Pinion head

In the Chevy ranks, have personally run across a wide spectrum of repro parts that there is no way I'd use any of them. Cheap repro sheet metal with poor lines, consoles that were made of junk plastic that would not hold up to heat; ie, heat from direct sunlight in a local repro parts joint's showroom window... actually distorted the plastic. Tail light lenses that turned pink in just a few years on garaged seldom driven car. Poor definition low pressure die casting emblems, a few repro trunk lids, so poor ...they were suitable for a derby car, junk bumpers, junk trim rings... could go on & on, all it takes is a trip to a swapper with local buddy who has has owned a real 69 Z-28 since the Nixon era.

Originally Posted by ANDYA

What I can never figure out is that we are trying to copy 45-50 yr old manufacturing techniques using modern equipment. You would think that repro parts could be made 100% like original fairly easily, instead the quality is never as good as original.

To me, this indicates that GM does not get enough credit for making a good part in the first place.

We test for this kind of stuff, through accelerated solar loading and durability testing and multiple car wash and hot tunnel and flame retention and..and...and etc.

Plus, we probably have to meet legislated requirements for outgassing of plastics and/or rubber, etc, that smaller companies don't have to meet (or choose to ignore). And safety/barrier testing.

That's why it takes four years for us to bring a product to market. There are a lot of constraints to balance. It's pretty easy and fast to make a crappy part; not so easy or fast to make a good one.

K

[dld]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

To me, this indicates that GM does not get enough credit for making a good part in the first place.

We test for this kind of stuff, through accelerated solar loading and durability testing and multiple car wash and hot tunnel and flame retention and..and...and etc.

Plus, we probably have to meet legislated requirements for outgassing of plastics and/or rubber, etc, that smaller companies don't have to meet (or choose to ignore). And safety/barrier testing.

That's why it takes four years for us to bring a product to market. There are a lot of constraints to balance. It's pretty easy and fast to make a crappy part; not so easy or fast to make a good one.

K

And how's all that working nowadays.

just kidding Keith. could not resist that one. I have driven lots of 2-3 year old american cars in last ten years or so. I think they run ,drive , handle great! actually amazing. The newer the car the better it seems.

That GM licensing thing. I was told was more about protecting the brand and logo. As was told if they let it out to use w/out protection it's perprity it could be lost to the market. It's not about the quality of the part or artistic rendering or a money grab.

[Jerry H.]

I do some work for a company that is in the sheet metal reproduction business. Yes, the actual parts are manufactured in China, but that's the easy part.

Let's take for example the 64-7 GTO hood that is currently reproduced. Fairly nice, but not perfect. Has a 'dip' in front of the scoop area. If we were to decide we wanted to make a better hood, first we have to analyze the market. Is there going to be demand for 500 or so of these in the future? Although it make take only $25 or so of sheet metal to make a hood, can you even imagine what the tool would costs to stamp it out? And with the underside bracing, you are talking about additional tooling.

Once it is determined that the demand is there, we've got to find a perfect original hood to use as a pattern. And we're not talking about one all worked and painted. Gotta be stripped down to the bare metal. Then it has got to be crated and shipped to over to Taiwan. Once they get it over there and build the tool (and maybe after a trip over to make sure it's ok) one is stamped out and shipped back over. So it's ready to sell, right? Not quite yet. Every piece of sheetmetal is test fitted. We've got to hunt down a quality car to test fit it on. With this particular part that wouldn't be too hard, but can you imagine finding cars to test fit full quarters, roof skins, outer wheelhouses, etc? This can slow the process.

Now if the part fits; fine, it is ok'ed for production and when any production run samples are test fitted to make sure the quality is upheld. If it DOESN'T fit properly, then adjustments are noted and it is shipped back to Taiwan and the process starts all over.
$450 doesn't sound too bad for that hood anymore does it? I have not idea how other companies do it, but that's how AMD does it. BTW, we are looking for a 67 GTO, Lemans or Tempest with a good, unmolested rear clip area. We are looking to reproduce the full quarters, package tray to trunk lip area, full trunk pan, outer wheelhouses and tailpanel. We will pay market value and travel for the right car.