[moontower69]

Can anyone help me out. I switched out a stretched timing chain, with the help of my engine builder Geno Rojas. I gave him a new 770 Street Avenger and $90 bucks payment. He leaves, car turns over like no compression - installation was wrong. He didn't have degree wheel or piston stop and left me in the lurch (won't return calls for 3 weeks).

So I spend 300 or 400 bucks at Summit and get all the right tools (piston stop, degree wheel, crank socket (Geno had me crawling under the car to move the crank), breaker bar, lobe measurement tool so I can degree with heads on and torque wrench.

I educated myself and watched numerous videos. I just spent 2 days re-installing the chain, i found TDC by dividing the numbers back and forth with a piston stop. I did dots at 12 and 12 so I could stab #1 on dizzy. Just buttoned it back up and it runs super rough like backfiring. It's wrong, I noticed the mark on balancer is off.

I'm at my wits end. I've spend 4 weekends and 2 workdays and my engine builder won't return my calls and walked off with my carb.

Any help is appreciated. I thought you just slide the timing sprocket on once you find TDC, I did and the dot on the cam sprocket was at 12, so I lined up the crank sprocket and advance it 4 degrees. What am I doing wrong?

[77 TRASHCAN]

First things first...

Is firing order on cap going counter clockwise??? If it's going clockwise it WILL run, but not very dad gum well...

If you are confused about #1, pull off drv. side valve cover, as #1 intake closes, the dampener mark should be close to lining up w/ timing marks on timing cover. Line the timing mark on dampener w/ approx. 6 or 8 degrees on timing mark. Look at where the rotor is pointing, Put #1 wire there, and go around cap 18436572. counterclockwise!!!

Next, start it up!!!

Geno, I'm coming for the carb!!!

Of course this only applies IF the timing chain is installed properly.

[Schurkey]

Is this a multi-keyway timing set?

Did you align the CORRECT marks for the keyway you selected?

When you degreed the cam, did the numbers match the cam card?

Any chance the engine has bent valves from the previous screw-up? Rocker arms adjustable??? Are they adjusted properly? A leakdown test would verify the lack of valve sealing.

[TransAm525]

If you're confident the cam was degreed correctly, check the firing order and rocker arm adjustments as suggested above. Pull the #1 spark plug and use some sort of non-marring tool to help find TDC of the piston. Once this is done, re-check the balancer, as it's possible your outer interia ring may have slipped, thus providing false ignition timing indications with respect to your timing light. Check everything suggested here thus far and report back.

[AG]

You need to pay your moronic engine builder a visit and get him to fix it or give you your money back.

[moontower69]

Schurkey, it's a 9 way pro billet I bought from Butler, it was supposed to be the best quality, it's .005 shorter because the 389 was align honed.

What I'm confused on is installation. Folks say the key on the crank snout should be at about 1 o'clock but after I find TDC with degree wheel my key is at about 7 o'clock. I advance it 4 degrees so key ended up at about 11. I slid it on and my dot on the cam sprocket was at 12.

Is this wrong, does TDC even matter, should I just slide everything on so I'm dot to dot at 12 and 6 and THEN advance it with the degree wheel and verify TDC??

[PONTIAC DUDE]

First off 4 degrees on the crank can end up 8.

I have run into a lot of issues with those billet 9 keyway gears and off as much as 10 degrees.
Every 9 keyway timing set needs to be degreed in. Period. In all the years using them I have never found one that was correct!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why are you advancing the camshaft?

[Jack_77GP]

Sounds like you're 180* out. #1 cylinder is front driver's side. Bring #1 to top dead center, crank key should be at 12 o'clock. Rotate cam so cam key is also at 12 o'clock, install timing chain at 0 and check timing with degree wheel there first, and see if you actually need the extra 4* of advance.

[54nomore]

Actually, when #1 cylinder is at TDC the crank key will be pointing up inline with the drivers side bank (45 degrees or about 1:30 on a clock face).

I would start by installing dot to dot (12 and 6) because it's easier to see that your lined up straight. Use the "zero" keyway initially and check the valve events against the cam card, THEN advance or retard the cam IF needed to match specs on card. Cams are not always ground perfect and you might have to compromise slightly on valve events.

When you're satisfied with your cam timing, rotate crank so that cam sprocket dot is at 12 o'clock and install the distributor.

[moontower69]

I want to advance it because motor ran ok up top (3500-4500) but doggy down low, real soft off line (wouldn't spin tires) no matter what the tune. Cliff indicated most crowers need some advance to get them back to a 108 ICL.

I'll take it off this afternoon and try to install with both keys at at 12 o'clock then slide on cam and crank sprocket and see where i end up - is that right?

[moontower69]

This is helpful everyone. The mystery for me here is that when I verified TDC on #1, the the crank keyway is pointing to the bottom left, about 8pm on a clock face?

Folks here are saying that at TDC the crank key should be pointing at around 1 or 1:30 on the clock. What am i doing wrong?

Did the engineers in the factory set it up so that the chain goes on with the crank key at 1:30 and the cam key facing straight up at 12?

Am I just wrong on where TDC is?

[54nomore]

Here's a couple pics of an Edelbrock timing set. One may be better than the other, but as you can see, when the dots on the sprockets are lined up (TDC) the crank key is where I stated and the cam key is a little before 12 o,clock.

I think a couple points of confusion are the fact that in this position, #6 is firing, not #1.

Also, while not familiar with Crower cams in general, I know that some cams are ground "straight up" (no advance built in). For example: 112 lobe separation/112 intake centerline would require advancing the cam 4 degrees to achieve a 108 intake centerline.
Other cams have some advance ground into them for example: 112 lobe sep./107 intake centerline. With a cam like this, the 107 spec would be achieved by installing the timing chain using the "0" keyway on the crank sprocket. To add to the confusion, some people refer to this as "straight up" (as opposed to using the advanced or retarded keyways).

Now that I have sufficiently confused you hopefully the pictures will help clear thins up.

Ron.

[goathead455]

Originally Posted by moontower69

This is helpful everyone. The mystery for me here is that when I verified TDC on #1, the the crank keyway is pointing to the bottom left, about 8pm on a clock face?

Folks here are saying that at TDC the crank key should be pointing at around 1 or 1:30 on the clock. What am i doing wrong?

Did the engineers in the factory set it up so that the chain goes on with the crank key at 1:30 and the cam key facing straight up at 12?

Am I just wrong on where TDC is?

Which cylinder are you checking as #1?
Front drivers side or passenger side?

[72LuxuryLeMansLa.]

Originally Posted by moontower69;5189199[B

]I want to advance it because motor ran ok up top (3500-4500) but doggy down low, real soft off line (wouldn't spin tires) no matter what the tune. [/B] Cliff indicated most crowers need some advance to get them back to a 108 ICL.

I'll take it off this afternoon and try to install with both keys at at 12 o'clock then slide on cam and crank sprocket and see where i end up - is that right?

If the cam was not degreed in correctly the first time it could have been installed retarded.....I would install the cam with the intake centerline suggested by Crower. Installed correctly with a degree wheel to verify the Intake Center Line you probably will get the performance issue worked out. If there is an issue then, at least you know where you are advancing from.

[Will]

Originally Posted by goathead455

Which cylinder are you checking as #1?
Front drivers side or passenger side?

This.

AND,

How are you verifying TDC on the cylinder you're checking?

[gtofreek]

Are you figuring the drivers bank is #1 cylinder? It sounds like you're trying to find TDC on #2 cylinder[passenger side bank]. Crank key should be around 1:30-2 o'clock position with #1 at TDC.

[Old Goat Racer]

Originally Posted by moontower69

I want to advance it because motor ran ok up top (3500-4500) but doggy down low, real soft off line (wouldn't spin tires) no matter what the tune. Cliff indicated most crowers need some advance to get them back to a 108 ICL.

I'll take it off this afternoon and try to install with both keys at at 12 o'clock then slide on cam and crank sprocket and see where i end up - is that right?

Both keys at 12 o'clock. NO<NO<NO

Look at 54nomore pics

[moontower69]

The cam was not degreed by my engine builder (just dot to dot, not sure he knows how to degree a cam), my sense from how it ran was it was retarded. I recently replaced the fuel pump and noticed at least 1 inch of slack on the timing chain, hence putting a new chain and trying to rectifiy the poor performance.

I'm using the correct #1 cylinder (driver's side, first one next to radiator). I used a piston stop to find TDC and a degree wheel. What stumps me is that at TDC the keyway on the crank is at about 7 oclock - everyone says it should be at 1:30. Isn't this impossible.

To find TDC I put the wheel on and turned in one direction until it stopped and then the other direction, added the numbers and divided by 2. Then I adjusted the wheel to make the midpoint zero on the wheel. Worked out to be exactly 147.5 degrees in either direction where it would hit the stop.

So at zero on my wheel, that's my TDC, and the keyway on the crank is at 7 oclock. Maybe I need to stick something in the cylinder to physically verify? Or pull my heads?

[gtofreek]

Try it this way. Stick a pencil[eraser end] into the spark plug hole and slowly turn engine by hand. Find the point where it feels like the piston is starting to turn over. get it as close to tdc as you can here to start. Then set your degree wheel at tdc. Now,use your piston stop to zero in TDC. That way you will be within a few degrees so your margin of error is far less. You have to be doing it wrong. Every Pontiac I have built[and it's been a lot]has had the crank key at 1-2 o'clock at TDC. Not 7.

[dmac]

Any chance you have an olds engine in a firebird?

Edit- see it's a 389, not a 403 olds