[John Langer]

Tigers set the na bar as soon as they were bolted on a block. Just sayin'.

[mike leech]

To my knowledge the first set run fell short of at least 4 na engines with other heads. I think 840hp. But there may have been another engine ran sooner than franks that I don't know of. But yes in capable hands they pretty much shot out of the gate. And you may have meant your first attempt with them....

[BruceWilkie]

Originally Posted by LiL Jack

Visner didn't skip over us.

Thats nice Jack.

[cgeise]

trust me -- the tigers had there own issues - but when taken care of they do work

[ponjohn]

Originally Posted by BruceWilkie

And how many new developers will simply skip over us because they simply can not afford to meet your requirement?


Not exactly true... there are product offerings in use and they have shown improvement over standard castings. Bench dyno and track... they may not have set records but if you look at the sum of the entire combo they are certainly an improvement. Had other heads shown similar results? Sure, but how much development time, and again, the entire sum of the combo?


Not exactly... They(ports) are available to meet applications that would make best use of them.

Thus minimizing wait time should someones application call for a port of that capability.

Bill/Calvin arent so much about bragging as letting people know what is available and what capabilities the heads have.

BTW there are 2 small ci builds in the works. Comp eliminator style, NA... and serious pump gas NA. Funds are slow, most the pieces are there for the pump gas combo. (Not me btw) Some for the other.

In hindsight it looks to me like they didnt pass on enough info of what capabilities one would require for good use of a given port capability. Sure, many dont need the extra info, and many let someone else more knowledgeable help decide, IMO it would have been helpful for some.

Contrary to what you and others have been led to believe... Bills ports are of excellent design parameters, efficiencies etc., if starting with porters castings.

Std castings get notable improvements on the basic "tune-up" porting. Real estate permitting, the big flow heads have very very good to excellent port qualities for their size.
The standard castings arent defective, they have alot of capability. Much depends on how they are applied.

How they are perceived is notable as well. An early BES built cv1 street motor makes just as much if not more power than a Kasse built P51 head Ford at similar CI, both with similar COMPROMISED performance parameters(long term street use on pump gas not max power or engine master budget).
Obviously no one criticized because BES was involved, yet no one noticed(or ignored if they did) the parameters.. most any good shop could duplicate the results...

Yet more notably ignored... Here was a Pontiac shoulder to shoulder with a popular competitors brand with a head of similar ability NOT almost as good but equal to slightly better.

The std cast 4 intake is compromised for hood clearance street strip use. A couple of race single 4's are being exaluated... testing is promising but far from complete.

You ARE correct combo's need to be built and tested to "prove" them. They too want to get them built and "proven"...

Yeah its a shame a test like Fultons didnt occur much sooner than it did.

Its a damn shame some builds got criticized by some without really assessing the sum of the build itself, or in some cases, just openly lied and made up things as they went..

BTW has the economy been boomin the past 5 years??? Has it been shaky the past 7? My economy hasnt faired so well..
Tigers initially werent showin much... BUT a few invested heavily and showed otherwise. The economy was doing pretty darn good when that happened.

Available funds do matter. This isnt Edelbrock corp. Folks involved work at other things and do this on their free time. No way should they be expected to match resources and time tables of a large corporation.

Right now Jim will not produce new head castings. Maybe never.
Meanwhile builds are in progress... Admittedly slower than than most of us would like to see.

Results may indeed change the situation... only time will tell.

Bruce-

What is the largest segment of the Pontiac world...street / strip or 1100 hp n/a combos?

The 428 project would have conveyed the capability of a small CI build and given people such as myself another option over d-ports and e-heads.

If the combos are out there that validated the various ports then shame on them for not passing on the info.

[ponjohn]

Originally Posted by cgeise

trust me -- the tigers had there own issues - but when taken care of they do work

What issues?

[jdw_poncho]

Originally Posted by PONTIAC DUDE

No. Jim offered the Race Shop, not me. He supplied the head. That was his commitment we discussed going the next step. Heads up power adder racing before X-mas. I think he found out the head wasn't doing was it was supposed to do early on and just quit. Didn't want to spend or didn't have anyone to deal with port wise at that time to do another set of heads. I didn't lead Jim to water. I didn't need Jim to support me. Bwahahahahahahaha.
They were his design, His port work deal, why wouldn't I wait and use his port guy???????

Everyone has a specialty and ya take advantage of those services. That's what Jim was doing.
One more time for the hearing impaired. I had noting to do wit the Race Shop deal. I only spoke to them 2 times. Initially and when I had then send the furbared heads to me. Had nothing to do with me. I then sent them to Gaby and found out what they really could do and actual numbers. I already spent 10 grand on parts waiting on Jim's part of our deal.

It was his deal. I offered Gaby to do the heads initially, (he checked out my original out of the box set and offered his thoughts on their capability, but that's another story), but he already had his deal in play.
I never saw the heads until after the fact. I sent the valves to the Race shop and they were NEVER taken out of the box for 6 months and return the same way........... sealed in there original container. That dude didn't even know they were titanium!!!!!!!!!!!
They were always......... being worked as Jim said. And I took Jim at his word.
I supplied the rest. People still have no clue as to what he designed the head to do initially. Nobody wants to spend the time to do past research. The plan was changed when it wouldn't work for his original intent. Nothing more nothing less. I spent hundreds of hours testing the CV-1's.
I already proved what I could do years earlier heads up. That's why I made the commitment to Jim. Before big flow number were being produced. Back then there were very very few heads up Pontiacs competing in stock suspension classes. No match racing each other at Pontiac events, etc. I could count on one hand all the truely heads limited rules Pontiac out there. Pontiac's were bracket racing. Times are different now so you can't apply now to then. I started the FIRST Heads up deal at a Pontiac Event at Maple Grove and then Butler picked up the Ball. I started the heads up street car deal at Virginia.
OH well, hope all works out for the Head. I promoted them and sold quite a few for Jim. Looks like more then anyone else with my testing and results. The issues it seems came later when statements were made by others how the world was gonna rotate on a different plane and everyone is still waiting 5 years later. At least I got instant TRACK results and actual info posted. They worked, just had limited results in the ORIGINAL intended usage.
Things change, different players and people that can spend more time and money.

Race Hard & Have Fun. I learned a hard lesson even after 30 plus years in this business at that time.
Lotta Jim Jones out there. LOL.

Done and moving on. Believe what ya want. The people that count know the whole REAL deal.

Hope his NEW CV-2 program works out better.

I really dont care but thanks for the info. Its always good to see both sides.

Jeff

[jdw_poncho]

Originally Posted by mike leech

To be clear what i have a distain for is people getting all "its easy and you guys are just lucky". Whatever Product they are in love with. I'd bet that theres a lot of folks that were thinking their production run wide port eheads were going to make more than they actually made.

If you fellas went about things different and asked questions instead of making assertions and claims you'd get a different response. I hope you do set the world on fire....looks as though you're on the right track. still you have to do it though.

Did I say that to the "guys"? If so please find it..... I think you can use the "find my post" SOP you wrote me in one of your previous rants.

Dont lump me in any group, I think for myself and ask questions when I need to learn. I have a handicap, its two turbo's.

BTW, look back at my posts in the boosted section. The HP that I made down low with a set of standard e-heads and a UNPORTED victor manifold should give you an idea of what the engine is capable of. Im pretty sure I can duplicate the HP curve with my current heads.

Thanks for the Kudo's but they mean nothing coming from a hater........

[mike leech]

Ok then....keep us posted on your progress....I'm curious how it plays out for you even if you think I'm a hater. Getting it down the track is gonna be a handful and a lot of tuning.

And not to be "hater" but you do understand that the hp you made came from the turbos just like it will on the cv head. BTW with a pressurized intake and FI You should make a ton with those big ports..... How fast have you been prior to this point in time?

[jdw_poncho]

Originally Posted by mike leech

Ok then....keep us posted on your progress....I'm curious how it plays out for you even if you think I'm a hater. Getting it down the track is gonna be a handful and a lot of tuning.

And not to be "hater" but you do understand that the hp you made came from the turbos just like it will on the cv head. BTW with a pressurized intake and FI You should make a ton with those big ports..... How fast have you been prior to this point in time?

Of course I understand that, I've never claimed to have the baddest head on the market. I built it for the sole purpose of racing in my local 10.5 class. I would rather buy a set of 88's and run in a ODR class but I plan to do that with a bbc for the next build.

I've never been fast, it's all new......

[Daniel Barton]

Two words come to mind... pedantic and obtuse.

[mike leech]

Originally Posted by Daniel Barton

Two words come to mind... pedantic and obtuse.

LOL!

[BruceWilkie]

Originally Posted by ponjohn

Bruce-

What is the largest segment of the Pontiac world...street / strip or 1100 hp n/a combos?

The 428 project would have conveyed the capability of a small CI build and given people such as myself another option over d-ports and e-heads.

If the combos are out there that validated the various ports then shame on them for not passing on the info.

To clarify... NOT all the ports have yet been run and there probably is more than 15.

Perhaps some dont realize you dont simply hit the enlarge button on your copier to go from a good working modest sized port, to a larger higher flowing version of it. The form may still be the same but the shape is truly different. I know thats rather abstract but I cant word it in a manner that makes it clearer.

There are guys out there racing Pontiacs and doing well that never post... some dont do internet at all... Few know anything about some of those guys, let alone what heads etc.. Others that post are reluctant to be seen as somehow braggin if they talk about their own stuff.(all brand heads btw)

There are far few CV1 owners compared to many others... If 100 sets were made... maybe...WAG... 85 owners? I dont know... of them how many are using them or have used them at all?? probably less. Set aside for a future build or just an abandoned project due to hard times.
Just like Mystic was before sellin his CV's, there are guys with cv's reluctant to deal with the circus that tends to follow cv1 posts.

Driggers seldom posts... he picked up after switching to cut-off ex configuration... He has since had them upgraded to race plate... (I saw them when they were being done) Bad news travels fast... I havent heard anything... dont know if he got some runs in or not.

Yeah its a shame some dont post... but I dont fault them so much, as I do those so quick to belittle someones accomplishments with little to no consideration of the sum of the build or the budget they had to work with...

A guy could be the hardest of workers, very knowledgeable about race engines. Yet lifes plan only allows enough budget to get to where he is and not be the shining star.
Sucks, but thats the reality of it.
He is just doing it for enjoyment. Unlike some, he doesnt want to be the hero. Yet some have the gall to to lump him in a group, label the group as lib-tards, or some other form of belittlement, then accuse him through group association of saying it is easy or some other bull crap. All the guy wants is to race, try to get wins and get some satisfaction when he can.

Instead of postin up how he's doin... he just sits back. Intimidated that he might be treated as much the same as a welfare cheat or derelict lookin for a hand out.

Worse yet we collectively have too few take a stand against the intimidators. Not that most dont see its wrong or discuss it privately... they just dont want to get caught up in it.

[wreckmastr]

Just Sayin

[mjm421]

Originally Posted by Daniel Barton

Two words come to mind... pedantic and obtuse.

ouch!

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by LiL Jack

No problem Stan, just trying to move the Pontiac community forward.

In all seriousness what does you come up with on Jeff's junk?

Lil Jack,
There are many variables like traction and Density Altitude that have an impact on what Dyno HP is need to run a et / mph. The et from my simulation comes out very close but I am about 1.5 MPH lower. But I have no solid numbers to work with (CD / frontal area) for aerodynamic drag.

Stan

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by Daniel Barton

Two words come to mind... pedantic and obtuse.

Daniel,
You are correct. On the power stroke while the rod / crank angle are obtuse it is all good once they no longer are obtuse it is all down hill from there.

Stan

[LiL Jack]

Originally Posted by BruceWilkie

Thats nice Jack.

You are welcome.

[LiL Jack]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Lil Jack,
There are many variables like traction and Density Altitude that have an impact on what Dyno HP is need to run a et / mph. The et from my simulation comes out very close but I am about 1.5 MPH lower. But I have no solid numbers to work with (CD / frontal area) for aerodynamic drag.

Stan

What is your best guess?

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Lil Jack,
There are many variables like traction and Density Altitude that have an impact on what Dyno HP is need to run a et / mph. The et from my simulation comes out very close but I am about 1.5 MPH lower. But I have no solid numbers to work with (CD / frontal area) for aerodynamic drag.

Stan

You could get Jeff and Jack to give you an approximation on the Frontal Area,
Stan using Equation #2:

AF= (H-GC) W*0.93
where: H is the vehicle height
GC is the ground clearance
W is the width.

Better than nothing if they could "rough measure" the car.

Then do a "sweep" on Cd from .46 to .55


Tom V.