[Sirrotica]

What high performance part was the last part GM made for the Stratostreak engine? Aluminum valve covers?
Pretty slim pickens since 1974, when the SD was dropped. So Pontiac/GM hasn't made anything to increase performance for that engine for 40 years. How competitive can someone be with an engine that has no development from it's creator other than increase in fuel mileage (265/301) for that long?

If GM had decided to let each division have their own V8 Pontiac would have surely have designed a new engine because even the inferior SBC with much more development by GM ceased to exist in cars after 1997.

Buick was first to lose their V8 in 1976, Pontiac 1981, Olds 1987, although they did have a derivative of the Northstar engine called the Aurora engine, it was not their design. Chevy 1997 last year for SBC after having a thorough re-design in 1988. Cadillac was the final one to lose their 8th generation V8 in 2011. All have been replaced by the LS engine which is a true corporate V8 and everything GM puts a V8 in gets this engine. It's not a chevy design, it's a GM Powertrain design the first real corporate V8 that has no roots in any division of GM. The Stratostreak engine would not have been long for this world even if the divisions had been allowed to keep their own engines. Pontiac would have come up with something better as all the divisions had to. It would have had to be lighter in weight, more efficient, as the market changed. The 427 OHC Hemi concept showed Pontiac knew the days of the Stratostreak were numbered and that design was loosely used by ford in their modular engine. If Pontiac was still around and allowed to have their own engine it surely would be something other than the Stratostreak design as it would have been replaced as all the other divisions have lost their 50s designs too.

In the high performance area the chevy purists that were raised with the SBC/BBC don't claim the LS engine as a chevy either because it shares no parts with any chevy design, and chevy did not have anything to do with it's design.

If the architecture is similar to the original Stratostreak engine I can live with it being a Pontiac by design. The thing is you can now build a complete Stratostreak designed engine without using even 1 GM part, Their are not many engines families in all American V8 history that can claim that feat. It says the design was a solid platform, and quite advanced for it's time.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

What high performance part was the last part GM made for the Stratostreak engine? Aluminum valve covers?
Pretty slim pickens since 1974, when the SD was dropped. So Pontiac/GM hasn't made anything to increase performance for that engine for 40 years. How competitive can someone be with an engine that has no development from it's creator other than increase in fuel mileage (265/301) for that long?

If GM had decided to let each division have their own V8 Pontiac would have surely have designed a new engine because even the inferior SBC with much more development by GM ceased to exist in cars after 1997.

Buick was first to lose their V8 in 1976, Pontiac 1981, Olds 1987, although they did have a derivative of the Northstar engine called the Aurora engine, it was not their design. Chevy 1997 last year for SBC after having a thorough re-design in 1988. Cadillac was the final one to lose their 8th generation V8 in 2011. All have been replaced by the LS engine which is a true corporate V8 and everything GM puts a V8 in gets this engine. It's not a chevy design, it's a GM Powertrain design the first real corporate V8 that has no roots in any division of GM. The Stratostreak engine would not have been long for this world even if the divisions had been allowed to keep their own engines. Pontiac would have come up with something better as all the divisions had to. It would have had to be lighter in weight, more efficient, as the market changed. The 427 OHC Hemi concept showed Pontiac knew the days of the Stratostreak were numbered and that design was loosely used by ford in their modular engine. If Pontiac was still around and allowed to have their own engine it surely would be something other than the Stratostreak design as it would have been replaced as all the other divisions have lost their 50s designs too.

In the high performance area the chevy purists that were raised with the SBC/BBC don't claim the LS engine as a chevy either because it shares no parts with any chevy design, and chevy did not have anything to do with it's design.

If the architecture is similar to the original Stratostreak engine I can live with it being a Pontiac by design. The thing is you can now build a complete Stratostreak designed engine without using even 1 GM part, Their are not many engines families in all American V8 history that can claim that feat. It says the design was a solid platform, and quite advanced for it's time.

Rarely today are specific parts designed by the specific Component Engineer in the OEM arena. Today's Engineers are SYSTEMS ENGINEERS who hold ownership of a variety of parts designed by vendors to meet a specific task. Also if a part functions well then why duplicate someone's efforts. These are Production Parts. So a OEM Engineer at GM has not designed a specific part in years. He has lead a TEAM of engineers and the suppliers to create parts for him. The other people on the TEAM would test the parts, calibrate the parts, evaluate the parts, and then the Design and Release Engineer would sign-off on the parts for production on the new engine platform.

Now all that being said, you will have a small group of Motorsports Engineers that may work with experts to develop special parts for high performance applications. Depending on the budget they may or may not be successful with a niche market. Big HP is made by teams like Force and others who receive MONEY and do their own thing with basically NOTHING on the vehicle to call it a Chevrolet or Ford Engine.

JMO

Tom Vaught

[Mr Anonymous]

This will enliven the conversation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus

Same analogy as if you change everything but the vin, is it still the same car. Applies to engines too...

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Rarely today are specific parts designed by the specific Component Engineer in the OEM arena. Today's Engineers are SYSTEMS ENGINEERS who hold ownership of a variety of parts designed by vendors to meet a specific task. Also if a part functions well then why duplicate someone's efforts. These are Production Parts. So a OEM Engineer at GM has not designed a specific part in years. He has lead a TEAM of engineers and the suppliers to create parts for him. The other people on the TEAM would test the parts, calibrate the parts, evaluate the parts, and then the Design and Release Engineer would sign-off on the parts for production on the new engine platform.

Now all that being said, you will have a small group of Motorsports Engineers that may work with experts to develop special parts for high performance applications. Depending on the budget they may or may not be successful with a niche market. Big HP is made by teams like Force and others who receive MONEY and do their own thing with basically NOTHING on the vehicle to call it a Chevrolet or Ford Engine.

JMO

Tom Vaught

If you look to NASCAR V8s the chevy, ford, chrysler and toyota teams don't run engines that have much, if anything in common with production V8s, still no one in the garage or stands is whining about the engines not being able to bolt a 1955 head or valve cover to. They still call them chevys etc. even if the engines are not production based, and for the most part purpose built. Anything that is high end motorsports now, has little to do with what is, or was rolling off of the assembly line.

This has been the pattern in all forms of motorsports it has all been going away from production cars since the 70s as they all want to go faster and be more competitive and production parts break too much and don't make the required power, except in lower classes.

[Wareagle]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

In the high performance area the chevy purists that were raised with the SBC/BBC don't claim the LS engine as a chevy either because it shares no parts with any chevy design, and chevy did not have anything to do with it's design.

To say Chevy had nothing to do with the LS engine design lol- is it a Ford engine I see in those new Vette's etc.

[rexs73gto]

The LS engine was designed in the chevy plant & in the chevy design studio, & the engine says chevrolet on the parts. Plus when you buy a new LS crate engine the paperwork say a GM engine built by Chevrolet, so tell me why it's not a chevy engine. The LS engine was in design in the chevy performance div. in the mid 80's by chevy. Nt in the Buick studio 0r the saturn studio but in the chevy studio, so by that it's a chevy. A true Pontiac will have an engine designed & built by Pontiac which after 81 is the last true Pontiac made car. If you guys are so hip on making your Pontiac something that it's not why don't you drive something else & let us REAL Pontiac people drive our Pontiacs & you can drive what ever you want. By putting down Pontiacs you are not true believers in the Great One. You know what a real Pontiac has under the hood & what should be there & if you don't know why then you should go to another brand.

[Half-Inch Stud]

Geez it's almost 2014 and I' running a 1954 PMD engine in my 68GTO.


someone or something has to get with the times huh.

[Scarebird]

Originally Posted by rexs73gto

The LS engine was designed in the chevy plant & in the chevy design studio, & the engine says chevrolet on the parts. Plus when you buy a new LS crate engine the paperwork say a GM engine built by Chevrolet, so tell me why it's not a chevy engine...

Take a breathe, or use punctuation.

My 6.2 liter LS3 crate motor said nothing about being a Chevrolet, nor did the warranty paperwork. It said GM. Here's the engine tag:



and here is where it resides now:



State of California is kinda picky about emissions; and getting the 1971 era 400 mill to pass would have been a task. It must pass visual/functional testing in addition to tailpipe tests - hence the choice to use a GM 6.2l EROD motor.

It is not 1973 anymore.

[rexs73gto]

And at what dealership did you order that engine from????

[Steve Barcak]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Well Mickey Thompson DID make and sell HEMI heads for the traditional Pontiac Engine so your comment can't be because the Chebby engine is a HEMI. At least Mickey was 50 years ahead of the Chebby guys on that concept.

Tom Vaught

Just to add to Toms post. M/T did design and produce the HEMI Pontiac head and related parts but- Pontiac motor division itself made the HEMI blocks for M/T so, PMD obviously gave its blessing for the project. Making the M/T HEMI very much a real Pontiac engine and easily the most powerful Pontiac of the decade.

16th annual Pontiac Heaven coming this spring to Arizona.
https://www.facebook.com/PontiacHeaven

[Steve Barcak]

.....

[pastry_chef]

Originally Posted by Scarebird

My 6.2 liter LS3 crate motor said nothing about being a Chevrolet, nor did the warranty paperwork. It said GM.

What is the part #? Let's look it up..

Here is one from Summit, Chevy/Chevrolet is mentioned at least eight times on the page.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/nal-19257230

[Scarebird]

Originally Posted by pastry_chef

What is the part #? Let's look it up..

Here is one from Summit, Chevy/Chevrolet is mentioned at least eight times on the page.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/nal-19257230

Summit does indeed call it a Chevy - but GM does not, and since they are the manufacturers they are who counts.

[pastry_chef]

I'm pretty sure the paperwork was the same for my buddies ZZ502, lots of "gmperformance parts"

And Chevy's flagship Corvette is powered by a "GM" engine..

http://www.gmpartsdirect.com/perform...og_201286.html

The LS3 is the power behind the Chevy Corvette and Camaro SS. It’s rated at 430 hp in this new Crate Powertrain kit, offering the lightweight advantage of an aluminum cylinder block, aluminum heads and a composite intake manifold over cast iron engines in early cars.

-----
GM is cool by me..

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by rexs73gto

The LS engine was designed in the chevy plant & in the chevy design studio, & the engine says chevrolet on the parts. Plus when you buy a new LS crate engine the paperwork say a GM engine built by Chevrolet, so tell me why it's not a chevy engine. The LS engine was in design in the chevy performance div. in the mid 80's by chevy. Nt in the Buick studio 0r the saturn studio but in the chevy studio, so by that it's a chevy. A true Pontiac will have an engine designed & built by Pontiac which after 81 is the last true Pontiac made car. If you guys are so hip on making your Pontiac something that it's not why don't you drive something else & let us REAL Pontiac people drive our Pontiacs & you can drive what ever you want. By putting down Pontiacs you are not true believers in the Great One. You know what a real Pontiac has under the hood & what should be there & if you don't know why then you should go to another brand.

You really need to read how and who designed the LS engine and it doesn't say chevy on the engine, I own one. Are you familiar with the GM cast aluminum valve covers that fit the Stratostreak engine and say Pontiac on them, most likely the last thing GM will make for it? They are also branded chevy performance parts, so much for your analogy of chevy designing the LS engine. Did they also design the Pontiac aluminum valve covers?

It's branded chevy performance parts as everything HP that comes from GM, doesn't mean they designed anything. If you would do some research before calling me out you'd know that GM branded the whole line as chevy performance as GM Goodwrench doesn't have the recognition factor the chevy does, a marketing decision made by GM. The LS crate engines are sold and designated as GM engines. The SBC crate engines say chevy engine in the description. READ it for yourself GM Powertrain is NOT chevrolet. One thing that seems to confuse the issue is GM calls the LS engines SB Gen III and IV, that nomenclature DOES NOT mean Chevy designed it. There are SB fords and SB chryslers, doesn't mean chevy designed them does it?

http://www.gmpowertrainwarehouse.com...FSvl7AodAxYAaA

I really want to see your source that the says the LS engine was designed by chevy in the mid 80s............

JUST the facts, whether you want to believe them or not.

Timeline of Gen III V-8 Creation
Late '91: Tom Stephens asks GM Powertrain's Advanced Engineering to quietly pencil up an initial Gen III V-8 design.
May '92: A blind test by GM executives occurs at Black Lake inside GM Milford Proving Grounds, and pushrod V-8 development is green-lighted.
Late '93: The first dyno testing begins with prototype Gen III V-8 engines.
Mid '94: Gen III estimated at 10 percent of design requirements (this step is called Concept Approval in the GM development process).
Early '95: Chief Engineer Koerner gives a presentation to Chairman Jack Smith and other GM execs regarding the progress of Gen III V-8 program and receives a round of applause for progress and design potential. That response is unusual for these presentations.
Late '95: Gen III V-8 development is nearing completion in vehicles and on dynos.
Mid '96: The LS1 version of the Gen III V-8 is unveiled to the media.
Mid/Late '96: Production of the LS1 begins at the Romulus, Michigan assembly plant








The Gen III V-8 got the green light on one of the first sunny days of May, 1992. On the expanse of pavement called Black Lake, deep within the secretive General Motors Milford Proving Grounds outside Detroit, a group of GM leaders participated in a blind comparison of pairs of vehicles to decide the future of GM Powertrain engine development. Their conclusions would change the course of history for General Motors Powertrain, its customers, and the automobile industry.
This early mule is a Gen II with replicated-port heads. Notice the side-entrance intake ma


Why this test? At the time, the automotive business was ferociously arguing the merits of dual-overhead-cam engines versus pushrod engines. This hands-on comparison was to put the debate to a seat-of-the-pants experience. Luckily for automotive enthusiasts, the GM execs who thrashed two identical looking black Corvettes enjoyed the thrust of the one powered by a pushrod V-8 over the high-rpm power of the Vette with a prototype DOHC engine. As a result, GM Powertrain Engineering designed and built the pushrod Gen III V-8 often known as the LS1. With it, GM pulled the decades-old legacy of the small-block from the ashes and created an entirely new future.
The force behind the Gen III was Tom Stephens, then Executive Director of GM Powertrain and now Vice President of all GM Powertrain. Stephens knew that the tooling was worn out at the Flint, Michigan, engine plant where the Gen I and II small-blocks had been produced for over 42 years, so he schemed a proposal for an entirely new V-8 from new plants with new tooling. Stephens asked a few of his trusted engineers in the Advanced Engineering area of the GM Powertrain building off Joslyn Avenue in Pontiac, Michigan, to quietly work up the basic structure of a completely new multi-use pushrod engine. Alan Hayman, Jim Mazzola, and Tom Langdon in Advance Design, Powertrain, did much of this initial work. While most proposals go through a rigorous process, Stephens made a verbal request and paid off the overtime with pizza because he needed something to present to leadership during his initial pitch. He knew his proposal could not exceed the funds that had been earmarked to refresh the Gen II, and that he'd have to commit to exceed the goals set for that revamp.
The Powertrain Advanced Design work in late '91 and early '92 was augmented by rough drawi


It was an audacious gamble by Stephens. His Gen III would have to be smaller, lighter, more durable, and easier to mass-produce than the familiar small-block. It would need more horsepower and torque per ci, but deliver increased fuel mileage, reduced emissions, and industry-leading Noise, Vibration, and Harshness numbers. The new platform had to accommodate multiple displacements, cylinder quantities, and drivetrain configurations.
Says Hayman, "The first design we proposed, on a project we called the Venture V-8 or VV-8 internally, was denoted as project 57B. The name VV-8 was used because we were using a lot of learnings from another engine proposal we were working on, the Venture V-6. "
The 57B was a 90-degree, deep-skirt V-8 with 4.40-inch bore centers, a four-bolt-per-cylinder head and block design, and a raised cam to achieve a 146.08mm crank-to-cam centerline, which allowed a larger diameter camshaft than the Gen I. The 6.2L diesel cam bearings allowed a 19mm cam base circle. The valvetrain included investment cast rockers, and it was designed for 14 mm lift, even though initial versions would not have near that much valve lift. Most of these features would make it to production, but not the 57B's cast-in oil drainback holes.
Jim Mazzola told us, "Looking back, those were pretty exciting times. From the initial design to the difficult refinement stages, we felt like we were building GM's future."

The Gen III V-8 was derived from the never-produced Venture V-6 developed by V-6 Chief Eng


With the approval secured, Chief Engineer Anil Kulkarni, who had also headed the Gen II (LT1) team, first led the Gen III program. Kulkarni's strong opinions differed from Stephens' vision, and he moved on to other responsibilities early in the project. Stephens then hired Chief Engineer Ed Koerner, a GM Powertrain small-block V-8 veteran and former NHRA record holder. Stephens ran corporate interference while Koerner directed the day-to-day processes.
Koerner, who is now Executive Vice President of GM Powertrain Engineering, is a gearhead who counts many successful racers and speed-parts builders as friends. His office, adorned with images of the Gen III and performance vehicles, says this is a man passionate about GM performance. He can rattle off the vision for the Gen III V-8 as though he's just woken up with it in the middle of the night: "We wanted something of simple elegance-an engine that incorporated refined race technology. The block needed to be able to be cast of either aluminum or iron, have six-bolt mains, and have head bolts that pulled from the bottom of the block. It needed to be set up for an internally balanced crank, have a raised cam for crank counterweight clearance, and use bigger cam bearings than the Gen I and II. The bore spacing and external configuration also needed to take into account the fact this engine was intended to be used in rear-wheel and front-wheel-drive applications.
"The heads needed to have replicated ports and a rolled valve angle (15 degrees compared to 23 degrees on a Gen I/II) to optimize injection and combustion-chamber motion because of our power and emission requirements. The valvetrain would have an inline geometry, roller rockers and roller followers, a gerotor oil pump driven off the nose of the crank to eliminate the old camshaft-driven oil pump drive, and other improvements in an effort to reduce friction and flex wherever possible. Oil control would limit any wasted pumping losses.
The initial design involved a comparison of the five-bolt 57A design (left) and four-bolt


"For manufacturing simplicity, we'd eliminate the plugs at the back of the block by adding a rear cover, and have a nylon, integrated intake manifold built using a lost-core process to create smooth internal transitions for maximum airflow. The engine would have an electronic throttle control (which appeared on the '97 Vette) to provide power management.
"Oh, and the same basic architecture had to satisfy the needs of everything from the Corvette to all the fullsize trucks-which meant multiple displacements, which ended up being 4.8, 5.3, 5.7 and 6.0 liters and various power production levels."
This excerpt of Koerner's recollection came with no prepared notes or moments of reflection. It just rolled out of him, which shows how clear his vision for the Gen III was and still is some 10 years after the project began.
The all-star design team assembled by Koerner and the direction he provided throughout its journey are major reasons for the success of the Gen III. The members had dedicated their lives to being the best in their fields within the research, motorsports, and production development areas of GM. They were seven engineers who Koerner called The Super Six: Ron Sperry, Bill Compton, Brian Kaminski, Jon Lewis, Stan Turek, Don Weiderhold, and half-timer Dave Wandel. Cylinder-head guru Sperry commented, "Ok, that's 6.5, but we were considered six full-timers."
Adds Koerner, "From the beginning, we had talented, experienced people from every corner of GM in heated debates over how to do this or that. A great example is the simple solution the team created to locate the machining equipment on the raw engine-block castings. Instead of using external reference points, the machining equipment actually reaches up inside the block to locate the cylinder cores and center on them. This way, core shift and cylinder wall thickness issues are practically eliminated in the machining of the engine block. The Gen III project is loaded with situations like this that came from the team." Another came later when it was revealed that the shallow oil pan required by the Corvette caused oiling problems under high lateral loading. The team of Brian Green, Tommy Morrison, Nick Cole, George Fultz, Dave Klaasen, Tom Bierbauer, Jim Minneker, and others thrashed long and hard to get this under control. Fultz eventually helped GM design a special dyno cell to duplicate the scenarios the LS1 engine team encountered in vehicles. This allows testing much earlier in the development process.
The Gen III program was led on the ground by Base Engine Manager John Juriga who had worked 19 years in the small-block V-8 program. Juriga adds, "I ran the Gen III V-8 program initially for Anil Kulkarni, and then Ed Koerner, in the creation of things like the block, heads, crank, rods-essentially everything short of the fuel system, catalytic converters, and electronic controls. We were told from the beginning by the GM leadership that the initial analysis of the research pointed to a pushrod engine, but there was a question as to power production. From the beginning, no one in the trenches questioned whether power production would be an issue if we got the ports and valvetrain right."
Apparently, the Gen III V-8 development team knew a thing or two about the potential of this engine! The Gen III V-8 was first introduced in the '97 Corvette and has exceeded every goal set for it and continues to achieve levels of performance that a few years ago were unheard of.



I hate to break this to you, but I only own Pontiac cars, I don't drive any other brand of car. I do own a chevy K3500 truck and I made sure it did not have a chevy engine in it. It's a 6.5 Detroit turbo diesel. Next you'll be telling me it's a chevy engine designed by chevy engineers, It's not!!!!

I drive and own only Pontiacs and have owned over 60 Pontiacs for my entire life, can you say the same? Is your daily driver a Pontiac? Mine are. Have you won any sanctioned races with Pontiacs? I have. Don't try to make me out to be a sellout just because you don't know the facts about GM powertrain and chevrolet motor division.


HAVE A NICE DAY!!!!!

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by rexs73gto

And at what dealership did you order that engine from????

GM powertrain designed LS engines can be bought from any buick, GMC, cadillac, or chevy dealer, they are not only sold at chevy dealers.

[geeteeohguy]

A Pontiac engine is not a Pontiac if Pontiac didn't make it. A Pontiac car is a Pontiac always as long as it's got it's Pontiac GM body. Anything else is aftermarket, which is fine. A Chevy engine in a Firebird is still a Pontiac vehicle. It says so on the title and vin.

[geeteeohguy]

Reading Brad's post, to clarify, I'm referring to 'old' stratostreak-based engines, and old school BBC engines--- not the newer LS stuff. I agree with him on that....the LS stuff in a late Trans Am is a very much a Pontiac IMO......LS is a GM engine, NOT a Chevy only engine.

[mjm421]

I think engine wise there are three terms that come to mind. Traditional iron, aftermarket and corporate. If you have a 79 T/A that was delivered with a 403 it's a Pontiac. Same for Canadian cars. An 82 T/A with a 555 would fall in aftermarket.

[PONTIAC DUDE]

As the Hemi heads were produced "OUTSIDE" the PMD division. They are not Pure Pontiac.

They also put a part number on a "FORD" hood scoop too. LOL>