[Engine-Ear]

Man, I have to say, the feedback has been GREAT.

Bunkie Knudsen said you can sell a young man's car to an old man, but you can't sell an old man's car to a young man. ...is there something in there regarding club membership?

Just wondering. Thoughts?

[65 Cat 2+2]

When are the director applications due and who do we send them to?

Anyone interested in being considered for election to the POCI Board should contact one of the following:

Don Bougher
email: rainbow.farms@onlinenw.com
Phone: 503-868-7500

Jack Anderson
email: jgand789@hotmail.com
phone: 302 353-0244

Mike Darr
email: darrscars@yahoo.com
phone: 816-532-4349

You will be provided a questionnaire to fill out, and asked for a photograph (head shot only) suitable for publication in Smoke Signals. These need to be returned no later than Nov. 30, due to print publication deadlines.

The reason that the number of candidates is limited to two per director's position is that incumbents running against multiple new candidates were perceived to have an unfair advantage. The new candidates would invariably split the votes and the incumbent would be a shoo-in.

[Formulabruce]

Just a couple points of observation from "outside"
People get more "stubborn" with age and focus more on their interests and usually get to the point they REFUSE to deviate.
People get to being in "clicks" in car clubs, and any newbie can easily think they are an "outsider"
I go to a cruise night quite a ways away which a Firebird club runs. Many nights there is only ONE Firebird there, BUT, there is a whole young crowd with everything you can think of on wheels. Im in my 50's, and found myself listening to a 20 year old talk about his 2 door Honda ( was a 4 door at one time) and all its mods for like 45 minutes. I was sorta shocked at what he knew. He wasnt a stereo and subwoofer kid...Soon others were hanging around and listening commenting. Guess it sort of bridged the gap. there was the lawnchair crowd too there, some segregated by brands even.
Point here is that the whole hobby, even the "Ricers" has dropped off some. Time to work together.
You will NEVER please everyone with a magazine. You just cant do drag racing, stock, modified, and all models of all years of Pontiacs. PE was great, I hated to see it go, but Im sure many couldnt care less. HPP is always looking for articles that will spark new interest however the word 'HIGH PERFORMANCE" Kind of limits that.
You can usually NOT change old ways, I STILL have trouble convincing old timers that a Thermostat Fully operates about 20 degrees HOTTER than its rating!!
Stubborn people usually think their way is the BEST way..... the Miracle comes when stubborn people work together ( like many musical groups, and stubborness drives them apart)
Reaching out across the "Generations" as PY has done with parts is important for any Club to survive. Linking to a existing success story can only make things grow, IF the old ways are gone, and the fellowship remains.
Many club officers say they do NOT want drama in their club and screen new officers accordingly, but in reality THEY are their own Drama and cant see it.
Lastly, went to a cruise night this summer and at the very end of a row was an Aztec. I went down to see it and show my wife, Neither of us had looked at one close up. This was one of the last made. This guy had a tent on the back of it. In a few minutes 15 people were standing around it. One guy asks where HE can get one!!
Its time to let the 4cylinder Firebirds, The Esprit's, Aztecs, the Solstices, Fieros, etc IN to the fold..
NOTE, Funny how the PY show turned into a GTOAA show..???

[Andre]

I offer some additional thoughts that aren't really club specific, but more of an evolution. Maybe some will agree. Once upon a time, I enjoyed going to shows. Typically a show would start at 9:00am and maybe be done by 3:30-4:00pm. Usually it was a asphalt parking lot, but occassionally a nice park or better surrounding. In those days, a car show was a rare occurrence. In the early 90's we had a little hamburger stand run by a woman and her parents that started a Tuesday night cruise scene. Free to anyone, just show up when you want, leave when you want. That became quite popular. As time went on, there was a resurrgence in the hobby, and after a while there were multiple shows every weekend. It became a bit of a cottage industry for promoters, and many gave trophies to anyone who showed up. Restaurants would hire them to put on a show to increase revenue etc etc.

With this glut of shows, you could pick and choose, and as a result shows became smaller. In the mid to late 2000's, the evolution continued, and there was a decrease in shows. Cruise nights would pop up, last a little while then fail, and move to somewhere else.

Now in 2013, there seem to be a huge decrease in shows. I will attend from time to time, but the length of the time that I stay at a show is less and less. I just don't feel like sitting around for 6+ hours. Now I drive my cars more... though still not as much as I should.

[65WJ]

Originally Posted by Andre

I offer some additional thoughts that aren't really club specific, but more of an evolution. Maybe some will agree. Once upon a time, I enjoyed going to shows. Typically a show would start at 9:00am and maybe be done by 3:30-4:00pm. Usually it was a asphalt parking lot, but occassionally a nice park or better surrounding. In those days, a car show was a rare occurrence. In the early 90's we had a little hamburger stand run by a woman and her parents that started a Tuesday night cruise scene. Free to anyone, just show up when you want, leave when you want. That became quite popular. As time went on, there was a resurrgence in the hobby, and after a while there were multiple shows every weekend. It became a bit of a cottage industry for promoters, and many gave trophies to anyone who showed up. Restaurants would hire them to put on a show to increase revenue etc etc.

With this glut of shows, you could pick and choose, and as a result shows became smaller. In the mid to late 2000's, the evolution continued, and there was a decrease in shows. Cruise nights would pop up, last a little while then fail, and move to somewhere else.

Now in 2013, there seem to be a huge decrease in shows. I will attend from time to time, but the length of the time that I stay at a show is less and less. I just don't feel like sitting around for 6+ hours. Now I drive my cars more... though still not as much as I should.

Alot of Wisdom from Andre.
To add to his thought POCI starts on Wednesday and goes to Sunday. The 2 shows I attended most of the cars were gone by Saturday afternoon. Swamp meet was gone.
Tri-power Nationals draws close to 1000 cars. 400 race 600 show? Huge swap meet and it is Friday, Saturday awards 3pm Sunday. To me this is a great model to go by.
In 8 hours you can see all the cars cruise the swap meet and watch the fastest Pontiacs in the country race side by side. Well organized event and worth the 40 bucks.

patrick

[stevep]

An extra day was added to the POCI Convention before I left the BOD and I thought that it was going overboard. It used to be that the BOD meeting was the day before any activities, then you had day 1 or opening, day 2 had chapter night and day 3 was show day. But we did not have a large points judged show to fit in, so we actually needed the extra day.

[8LUG]

chief car show guy, told me when I asked about Points judging years ago. We wont get that nit picky. when asked about a few details, and was sure to tell me about radial tire deductions, at that time it was 15 points. My concern was safety when driving to the shows. His answer was use bias tires with tubes in them. Points judging is about correctness! never entered my car since then. Been a member since 1987 and had the car that long also.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Andre

I offer some additional thoughts that aren't really club specific, but more of an evolution. Maybe some will agree. Once upon a time, I enjoyed going to shows. Typically a show would start at 9:00am and maybe be done by 3:30-4:00pm. Usually it was a asphalt parking lot, but occassionally a nice park or better surrounding. In those days, a car show was a rare occurrence. In the early 90's we had a little hamburger stand run by a woman and her parents that started a Tuesday night cruise scene. Free to anyone, just show up when you want, leave when you want. That became quite popular. As time went on, there was a resurrgence in the hobby, and after a while there were multiple shows every weekend. It became a bit of a cottage industry for promoters, and many gave trophies to anyone who showed up. Restaurants would hire them to put on a show to increase revenue etc etc.

With this glut of shows, you could pick and choose, and as a result shows became smaller. In the mid to late 2000's, the evolution continued, and there was a decrease in shows. Cruise nights would pop up, last a little while then fail, and move to somewhere else.

Now in 2013, there seem to be a huge decrease in shows. I will attend from time to time, but the length of the time that I stay at a show is less and less. I just don't feel like sitting around for 6+ hours. Now I drive my cars more... though still not as much as I should.

I'm right there with ya. I enjoy driving my cars and if it's a pretty enough day to have a show then I'd prefer to be going somewhere rather than sitting in a parking lot.

Plus: why should I have to pay $10 (or $15 or $20) to park my car(s) at a local small show when all the spectators get in for free? Seems kinda upside down to me.

Regarding POCI membership: I've been a member for about 10 years now. To be honest only reason I maintain the POCI membership is because it is a requirement for me to be in my local chapters: the Widetrackers and the Motor City Chapter.

One more point/question: anyone else having trouble adjusting to this "getting older" thing? I've always been a half generation/full generation behind the "big names" in the Pontiac hobby and therefore have always considered myself to be one of the young bucks. That doesn't seem to be an accurate perception anymore....



K

[bird72]

Random points from my mind that are issues:

I don't like Poncho groups that value GTO's above all else.

I don't like ego trip group leaders of any flavor

When "the organization" becomes more important than the "point of the group" it is wrong

Cliques within organizations that really run the organization

Groups so conservative they try nothing different EVER

Making things more than they should be (5 day events instead of 2 or 3)

Groups always needing money just to run the organization with no visable effect

The people with the most personal money having the louder voice

As in the people with the highest dollar cars somehow being better

and as I age, I HATE ELITISTS of ANY KIND! and these clubs attract them

I could go on

the SHAME is I would LOVE to belong to a GREAT Pontiac club! I would pay! I would attend! It would be FUN!

Years (I mean MANY) I looked into POCI, my impression was a bunch of crabby old guys who liked Chieftans and Oaklands and for the muscle they like GTO's and the last place a Bird guy would fit in. I think this is what grew the TAC and Bird organizations, a reaction to the Goat is King attitude. I love Goats, but IMO opinion, the birds draw more attraction from John Q average non Poncho person (I may take heat for that) but birds are AT LEAST the equal of anything Poncho else now and should not be the "little brother" they have been viewed as for so many years.

Bring on a new, revitalized POCI, and I WILL JOIN!

[Keith Seymore]

Matt, Deadhead -

This is all I have left to say:





K

[Alvin]

Originally Posted by Deadhead

I am sure there are a good number of you who are members of this organization. Though that number is declining. I am interested to know everybody's thoughts on it. I applied for a board position there and am getting a run-around that is akin to something I would expect in a govt. setting. I am not looking to change the world here, but it looks to me like the numbers are unsustainable and without some younger (under 40) people coming in this thing is going to go the way of the dodo bird. I am not in the under 40 set, but I do remember it clearly.

The organization is asking for clues as to why the membership is declining, and I cited the bureaucracy as part of the problem as well as a website that was like an empty warehouse with a tech section where questions go unanswered for weeks months or never.

In thinking about the future of the organization, I was wondering if there was any interest or consideration pertaining to a collaboration with PY. This could be a benefit to both organizations as they seek to strengthen their membership and security in a world where magazines and private websites are increasingly under pressure. Not sure how this would work, but there is no way to know without some kind of dialog. There are strengths with both that could obviously benefit one another. Don't know if there is any 'history' here or not, and don't really care either. In interest of fostering the future of the hobby politics are not part of the equation - only a way to make sure we connect the knowledge with the need in keeping these bad boys on the road and shining in the sun at shows.

If folks share their experience and criticism here, it will also give them a better idea beyond the criticisms I poignantly illustrated in my re-application, which will likely land in File 13. But, that is beside the point. If they get a picture of what the problem is maybe someone more diplomatic than me will be able to help. I have just seen time and again that organizations die under their own organizational weight when that becomes more important than their original purpose. In this case that would be the joy of working on and driving Pontiacs not paperwork and parliamentary procedure.

The flood gates are now open!

Originally Posted by Deadhead

Here is what was sent to me on November 7 AFTER I submitted a form application in AUGUST containing all of the information requested again here:

If you are interested in being considered for the ballot please complete the following questions. The deadline for responding with the answers to these questions is November 15, 2013.

If you are selected by the committe (Mike Darr, Jack Anderson and myself) you will need to provide us with the write-up of what you wish to have printed in the Smoke Signals about your candidacy and a "mud shot", something similar to a passport photo) no later than November 30, 2013.

Then there was a list of 8 questions to be answered in "resume format". Last time I reviewed 200+ resumes there were a whole lotta formats there, so I was not exactly clear on that. I was approached by members of the administration in the summer and submitted my application according to their instructions.

My experience has lead me to the conclusion that there is way too much focus on the process and not enough communication within or focus on the actual purpose which is the cars and the people. There may be too many people involved in the administration? While I clearly understand the need for some uniformity, putting a truck load of formality in a CAR CLUB is not the way to go. I MIGHT be a little paranoid, but I would say that sending me a request to re-apply a week before the thing is due after I submitted my application that long ago might just be a little political stonewalling. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Combine that with the ambiguous definition of the format and the fact that the board them limits it down to only 2 selections for each region to be on the ballot, and you have a set-up which could significantly limit the membership's ability to have access to and choose the people they want to run the organization and its shape going forward.

Unlike others, I am not going to keep my experiences and opinions close to the vest. This is what has lead to the current situation.

No surprise as to the runaround IMO. POCI is their own worst enemy. Although there are several excellent PY members who are attempting to resuscitate POCI from its' death spiral, the damage has already been done by a few bad Officer apples.

Unfortunately there are also more than a few POCI model specific "expert" and contributers who openly denigrate and ridicule in writing in these very forums anyone who has a differing point of view, or information they disagree with. The '73-77 ABody "angry expert" is the blatant example to me. Others here will show love for the same I wouldn't waste time with due to their constant negative turnoff.

Why would I continue to support an organization with my time and $ run by people I don't like, agree with how they lord over and abuse others here and elsewhere with their condescending "expertise" acid flame jobs. Seems like many of these "Tech Advisors" are auto renewed for life...

For me same website issues, lost password, and bad attitudes with interaction were bad. Larry Kummer was no better interacting regarding password issues, etc. IMO. I was one who called him and identified an past POCI renewal issue that he treated me like I was an idiot until I insisted he go step-by-step with me while on the phone, he on his computer and me on mine; and whatta you know: "Database Error!" So, who was the renewal customer idiot?

I remember past constant POCI "brainwashing" editorials such as to how great Aztec was and "if I cared about Pontiac I should run out and buy one!" and "GMC inclusion is best thing for POCI to thrive" mantra. How'd those work out?

PY provides all of the tech, friendship and support avenues free of charge. Don't like me or others here? Place on ignore.

[PMD1969]

Originally Posted by Alvin

No surprise as to the runaround IMO. POCI is their own worst enemy. Although there are several excellent PY members who are attempting to resuscitate POCI from its' death spiral, the damage has already been done by a few bad Officer apples.

Unfortunately there are also more than a few POCI model specific "expert" and contributers who openly denigrate and ridicule in writing in these very forums anyone who has a differing point of view, or information they disagree with. The '73-77 ABody "angry expert" is the blatant example to me. Others here will show love for the same I wouldn't waste time with due to their constant negative turnoff.

Why would I continue to support an organization with my time and $ run by people I don't like, agree with how they lord over and abuse others here and elsewhere with their condescending "expertise" acid flame jobs. Seems like many of these "Tech Advisors" are auto renewed for life...

For me same website issues, lost password, and bad attitudes with interaction were bad. Larry Kummer was no better interacting regarding password issues, etc. IMO. I was one who called him and identified an past POCI renewal issue that he treated me like I was an idiot until I insisted he go step-by-step with me while on the phone, he on his computer and me on mine; and whatta you know: "Database Error!" So, who was the renewal customer idiot?

I remember past constant POCI "brainwashing" editorials such as to how great Aztec was and "if I cared about Pontiac I should run out and buy one!" and "GMC inclusion is best thing for POCI to thrive" mantra. How'd those work out?

PY provides all of the tech, friendship and support avenues free of charge. Don't like me or others here? Place on ignore.

PY should establish its own club / chapters / shows / events as the new Pontiac interest group.

[Formulabruce]

Ill offer up a couple "solutions" that have been tried here in New England, and garner good support, and participation, in 2013.. ( Marketing changes with trends and economy, AND the Internet)
LOCAL working Ideas: ( Credit to Christian Driscoll, New England Firebird Club)
1. Car shows,>> END << them, and have a "Cruise in car show" Starts at 10 am, done at 2 pm. Many clubs have ONLY visitors votes, some do both, and yeah it can be a popularity contest. You will STILL pay, but more are for a non profit fund raising around here. Only 4 hours in daylight/Lunch
2.The "MOBILE" Cruisin' for FUN Rolling Car show" Usually around 100+ cars show up in the morning and they hit about 5 "Cruise in temporary "stops" , Yes its like a fun Parade, YES invite the Police, get an escort from each town/state and get it on video! And usually is for a non profit, like a foot race, you still pay to register. Sponsors LOVE this because of the diverse market reach.
3. Awards can be for ANYTHING,and can be announced what they are for at the very end!@ ( oldest car, dullest car,coolest car) bringing all walks into the " Cruisin' for fun Rolling car show"
4. Pontiacs.. Have a 4 cyl. class, front AND RWD class.....Have a 6 cyl class
5. Prizes.. how about some TOOLS vs car wax??
Lastly, for the Purest in us... MR "Made in the USA" Jay Leno just did a "Lenos Garage" show on the Fiat 500 . He owns 2 of them....GASP......

[gtohurstjudge]

As a 30 year POCI member, I'd like to put in my two cents....I'll make several observations... First of all, in any organization whether it is the slide rule club in High school,
The Glee club, The Lion's Club, or POCI there is going to be politics involved. This is necessary
so that club matters get done. Someone has to make decisions in any organization and invariably there are folks who disagree with those decisions because every human being is different. Very rarely are club officers out to get anybody or make someone else's life
miserable......they are just doing their best to do their job the best way they know how.
Invariably in any club there is a small faction who hates the officers guts and who make trouble for everyone else in the organization. The motivation for the hatred could be a personality clash or just plain jealousy. The fact of the matter is that some people don't
work well with others and should not belong to a club because they don't have the personality
required to get along with others who don't share their viewpoints. The POCI officers I have
met over the years were believe it or not just trying to help the club the best way they
knew how. Just like all people shouldn't belong to a club, not all people should be in an
officer position as they don't have the personal skills for it. To those who have dropped
out, I would say that if you don't have enthusiasm for the organization, then you did yourself and the organization a favor by dropping out. I've heard the same gripes about
POCI since the mid eighties......all of the complaints in this thread are thirty five years
old. Those of you who like this forum better than belonging to a club probably feel this way
because in this forum there are no officers making decisions that you disapprove of. That's
OK for an internet forum but in the real world there are people above you in rank that have
to make decisions, a lot of which you probably won't agree with.

[Alvin]

Originally Posted by gtohurstjudge

As a 30 year POCI member, I'd like to put in my two cents....I'll make several observations... First of all, in any organization whether it is the slide rule club in High school,
The Glee club, The Lion's Club, or POCI there is going to be politics involved. This is necessary
so that club matters get done. Someone has to make decisions in any organization and invariably there are folks who disagree with those decisions because every human being is different. Very rarely are club officers out to get anybody or make someone else's life
miserable......they are just doing their best to do their job the best way they know how.
Invariably in any club there is a small faction who hates the officers guts and who make trouble for everyone else in the organization. The motivation for the hatred could be a personality clash or just plain jealousy. The fact of the matter is that some people don't
work well with others and should not belong to a club because they don't have the personality
required to get along with others who don't share their viewpoints. The POCI officers I have
met over the years were believe it or not just trying to help the club the best way they
knew how. Just like all people shouldn't belong to a club, not all people should be in an
officer position as they don't have the personal skills for it. To those who have dropped
out, I would say that if you don't have enthusiasm for the organization, then you did yourself and the organization a favor by dropping out. I've heard the same gripes about
POCI since the mid eighties......all of the complaints in this thread are thirty five years
old. Those of you who like this forum better than belonging to a club probably feel this way
because in this forum there are no officers making decisions that you disapprove of. That's
OK for an internet forum but in the real world there are people above you in rank that have
to make decisions, a lot of which you probably won't agree with.

Winston, where will POCI be in 5 years, or less, if your "the same gripes" are ignored? Ford or Mopar peeps gonna take up the slack? Nope.

POCI - Understood for yrs that most post POCI national events were known as "club breakers" due to a limited amount of local club peeps doing all of the prep, sponsorship, location, promotion and execution work. Then many often struggled post event.

IIRC - this is also what negatively impacted DAPA's great Southern Nats...burn out! Yes?

FWIW - always enjoyed the DAPA Southern Nats. No harm, no foul intended here.

This indeed IS a free forum...POCI is not. People vote with their feet, most never say a word...

Nor do they (or you) really need approval of for examples; your '79 403 TA or '69 GTO 'Tribute' here or elsewhere. Yours - All fine vehicles.

If you don't like mine, I don't need to pay you or your org to tell me the same - that my selections are unacceptable to some "officers". So why would I pay $ to join a group of and have self proclaimed expert(s) attempt to dominate w value, attitude, my-way-or-the-highway negatives, with MY $$$ that I mostly disagree with? Answer: I don't.

Our personal Pontiac's survive without the drama.

[gtohurstjudge]

Originally Posted by Alvin

Winston, where will POCI be in 5 years, or less, if your "the same gripes" are ignored? Ford or Mopar peeps gonna take up the slack? Nope.

POCI - Understood for yrs that most post POCI national events were known as "club breakers" due to a limited amount of local club peeps doing all of the prep, sponsorship, location, promotion and execution work. Then many often struggled post event.

IIRC - this is also what negatively impacted DAPA's great Southern Nats...burn out! Yes?

FWIW - always enjoyed the DAPA Southern Nats. No harm, no foul intended here.

This indeed IS a free forum...POCI is not. People vote with their feet, most never say a word...

Nor do they (or you) really need approval of for examples; your '79 403 TA or '69 GTO 'Tribute' here or elsewhere. Yours - All fine vehicles.

If you don't like mine, I don't need to pay you or your org to tell me the same - that my selections are unacceptable to some "officers". So why would I pay $ to join a group of and have self proclaimed expert(s) attempt to dominate w value, attitude, my-way-or-the-highway negatives, with MY $$$ that I mostly disagree with? Answer: I don't.

Our personal Pontiac's survive without the drama.

All your points just affirm what I said....The idea that someone in a national club
would critique your car chafes you.... you are not the Lone Ranger.....many others feel
the same way. Many so called "experts in the hobby" tend to gravitate to the national
club that has to do with their area of expertise. That is the natural order of the way
civilization works. If you didn't like POCI and you left with your "feet" then you did the right
thing. Isn't it great that nobody requires you to belong to a club to have fun with your
Pontiacs. Where will POCI be in ten or twenty years? Since all of those who care about Pontiacs will be on the wrong side of the grass by then, it will still be around but be much
much smaller,maybe 2500 members. That too is the natural order of things, just like the declining membership of a World War II Bomb Wing Association. To enjoy a club you have
to go in with the right attitude. If you don't like the point judged guys critiqueing your car,
there is a Road Warrior class at the convention where everybody just shows up with their
Pontiac with no judging. Part of people leaving POCI is just plain old "burnout" as you stated. It's hard to stay enthusiastic about something for twenty or thirty years. It just
defies human nature. Most people get bored and move on with their hobbies eventually.
Their is no "conspiracy" at POCI to make everyone get fed up and leave. Everyone in charge
of the organization is working hard to help the Pontiac faithful enjoy their cars.That I am
certain of. If Don Keefe or Jim Wangers votes with their feet then there may be a huge
problem, but I don't see that happening. Merle Green is working hard to improve POCI, just
like the presidents before him. I admire him for taking this often thankless job and I wish him well.

[Alvin]

Originally Posted by gtohurstjudge

All your points just affirm what I said....The idea that someone in a national club
would critique your car chafes you.... you are not the Lone Ranger.....many others feel
the same way. Many so called "experts in the hobby" tend to gravitate to the national
club that has to do with their area of expertise. That is the natural order of the way
civilization works. If you didn't like POCI and you left with your "feet" then you did the right
thing. Isn't it great that nobody requires you to belong to a club to have fun with your
Pontiacs. Where will POCI be in ten or twenty years? Since all of those who care about Pontiacs will be on the wrong side of the grass by then, it will still be around but be much
much smaller,maybe 2500 members. That too is the natural order of things, just like the declining membership of a World War II Bomb Wing Association. To enjoy a club you have
to go in with the right attitude. If you don't like the point judged guys critiqueing your car,
there is a Road Warrior class at the convention where everybody just shows up with their
Pontiac with no judging. Part of people leaving POCI is just plain old "burnout" as you stated. It's hard to stay enthusiastic about something for twenty or thirty years. It just
defies human nature. Most people get bored and move on with their hobbies eventually.
Their is no "conspiracy" at POCI to make everyone get fed up and leave. Everyone in charge
of the organization is working hard to help the Pontiac faithful enjoy their cars.That I am
certain of. If Don Keefe or Jim Wangers votes with their feet then there may be a huge
problem, but I don't see that happening. Merle Green is working hard to improve POCI, just
like the presidents before him. I admire him for taking this often thankless job and I wish him well.

My personal "Great" Pontiac memories include talking and meeting in person Pontiacers like Pete McCarthy, Steve Ames, and Jim Wangers among many others, at DAPA, TA Nats, Tour De Wangers, etc...

You wrote: "If Don Keefe or Jim Wangers votes with their feet then there may be a huge problem, but I don't see that happening."

If the future of POCI hinges on Don Keefe and (80+) Jim Wangers staying, you've pointed out the bullseye of the POCI survivalship problem. http://youtu.be/WZEJ4OJTgg8

[Ben M.]

Originally Posted by gtohurstjudge

I've heard the same gripes about POCI since the mid eighties......all of the complaints in this thread are thirty five years old. Those of you who like this forum better than belonging to a club probably feel this way because in this forum there are no officers making decisions that you disapprove of.

Translation: "These problems have been here and are always going to be here and we aren't interested in hearing what you have to say or ever think about fixing them. If you don't like the way POCI is run, feel free to leave."

Message received. Enjoy your club, new members aren't that important to try and draw in.

[gtohurstjudge]

POCI has the nicest monthly magazines of all the national car clubs I belong to,
and puts on a much better convention than the Chevy and Buick clubs I belong to, as well
as offering lots of great seminars and drag racing as well and a Road Warrior class for those
who don't want to get involved with competitive judging. They have come light years from
what they offered in the 80's and still people complain That's OK, you don't have to belong
to it. It's there if you want to partake in the festivities. If not, have fun on your own. I don't
have a personal stake in this argument.....I am not an officer or director, but I am happy
with POCI and I don't think much needs "fixing" except improvements to the website....which
is not that big a deal to me. PY got the jump on POCI when it comes to Pontiac forums and
I don't see the need for two national Pontiac forums anyway. Also, recently POCI was able
to establish a national Pontiac museum in Pontiac Illinois.....I haven't seen the Buick or Chevy
clubs do that either. If you don't like POCI, vote with your feet, but I'm not going to just
sit here and say nothing when the club gets badmouthed because I think it is a great organization.

[lfdsteve]

Originally Posted by gtohurstjudge

As a 30 year POCI member, I'd like to put in my two cents....I'll make several observations... First of all, in any organization whether it is the slide rule club in High school,
The Glee club, The Lion's Club, or POCI there is going to be politics involved. This is necessary
so that club matters get done. Someone has to make decisions in any organization and invariably there are folks who disagree with those decisions because every human being is different. Very rarely are club officers out to get anybody or make someone else's life
miserable......they are just doing their best to do their job the best way they know how.
Invariably in any club there is a small faction who hates the officers guts and who make trouble for everyone else in the organization. The motivation for the hatred could be a personality clash or just plain jealousy. The fact of the matter is that some people don't
work well with others and should not belong to a club because they don't have the personality
required to get along with others who don't share their viewpoints. The POCI officers I have
met over the years were believe it or not just trying to help the club the best way they
knew how. Just like all people shouldn't belong to a club, not all people should be in an
officer position as they don't have the personal skills for it. To those who have dropped
out, I would say that if you don't have enthusiasm for the organization, then you did yourself and the organization a favor by dropping out. I've heard the same gripes about
POCI since the mid eighties......all of the complaints in this thread are thirty five years
old. Those of you who like this forum better than belonging to a club probably feel this way
because in this forum there are no officers making decisions that you disapprove of. That's
OK for an internet forum but in the real world there are people above you in rank that have
to make decisions, a lot of which you probably won't agree with.

You just answered the question. Have your club and your declining enrollment ya arrogant prick. I will just drive my car and enjoy it.
Steve