[Blk12wls]

Does anyone have any info (photos) of the Bill Knafel Judge that had the Ram Air V porcupine valve hemi head engine in it? It was the only one of it's kind built. It was one of the Tin Indian group from his dealership in Akron. Bill mentioned that the entire car still exists. Richard

[Tom Vaught]

Never Heard of a "Hemi Headed" RA-V engine in all of the years talking to Tom Nell, the "RAM AIR V" Engine Engineer.

Closest engine to that deal would be the Pontiac SOHC Prototype Drawing Engine.

Tom Vaught

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Blk12wls you might have over-lapped some articles or paragraphs in what you read.

Knafels 70 Tin Indian Judge race car had a Ram5 shortblock - with some special (few sets made) angle plug Ram4 heads by Air Research - special proto intake - 900 or 950 thermoquad carb. The car still exists and is fully restored in "as raced" prep.

The only Hemi style heads for a pontiac were made by Mickey Thompson in the early 60's and were more in line with D-port heads .

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Restored with that engine

[Jack Gifford]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

... The only Hemi style heads for a pontiac were made by Mickey Thompson...
... were more in line with D-port heads...

I don't recall knowing of any others, but... I learn new stuff all the time, so who knows?
I'm not sure what was meant by "more in line with D-port heads"? Having worked with them for the last 27 years, I can assure you that the only thing in common is the head stud pattern!

[johnta1]

Hemi head by Mickey on Steve Bacak's site:

[Blk12wls]

The info I was referring to is in April 1999 Drag Racing Monthly called Tales of the Tin Indians by Jim McCraw. It mentions that Wangers got some award and Knafel went through the roof. To quote the article, "Knafel says the only Ram-Air V porcupine-valve, hemi head engine Pontiac ever built, which was once installed in the Knafel Judge, is still in existence somewhere." Not my words. Could it be an M/T head engine assembled by Pontiac? Possibly. I doubt it though. I worked at GM power train and saw some amazing stuff as you can imagine but, they often did engineering programs for research purposes. Believe that? Back then, theory was just that. Not a lot of documented data. It was mostly WWII tech being adopted by the auto industry. Like today! Thanks for the comments.

[Brian Baker]

WTF is a porcupine valve Hemi head? Some of the stories I have read about Knafel history over the last 10-15 years I think have been grossly exaggerated.

[Tom Vaught]

A lot of people have owned at least 3 or 4 cars with the "Porcupine Valve Hemi Head" engine, Brian.

They are called stock 2.3L 4 Valve FORD ENGINES. We call them "Pent Roof" Some even had DUAL PLUGS (like the race guys) too.

If I was a farmer in Ohio I could grow some serious corn in that state with all the manure stories I have heard from that place.

Tom Vaught

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

i have tried to stay abreast of Knafel stuff and facts for years.
Have never read anything from his personal 1 on 1 interview quotes - or his writings - that mentioned him ever having that engine.

But i wasn't there or anything
and don't know it all
but that DOHC Hemi was supposedly just a design concept that made it into a magazine article in 69 or 70 .

Here is another mention about it ... from the old Goat Finder publication

Our 3/98 issue featured the INCREDIBLE KNAFEL/Anderson Pontiac 1962 421SD/2x4bbl (405hp)/4Sp/4.30 posi ALUMINUM pre©"swiss©cheese" Catalina Sedan © NHRA A/S National Champ! Plus the '68 & '70 KNAFEL Firebirds both sporting the ONLY "Porcupine Hemi©Head" TUNNEL©PORT engine ever made, and both also being World Champs! And a pair of special©order '69/70 Ragtops...

http://www.angelfire.com/fl/pontiacgtos/page5.html

i think some things tend to grow in many directions sometimes ...
Now the engine has had roots in 3 different cars - to include the 70 Judge .

Have asked before in threads about anyone having any of these "wilder" issues of GoatFinder from the past. No one has shared anything - but some think they have some old issues .

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

just like i mistakenly called it a DOHC - its growing legs again . lol

i think this is the engine / article most of us are talking about

http://www.wallaceracing.com/hemi-1.html


there is an OHC 421 HO still alive in a 63 GP
i wonder if that authors facts (april 99) got overlayed or shuffled about different things and combined some as 1.

[Tom Vaught]

Malcolm MacKeller's 63 GP has been around for quite a few years, as many know. BUT GM GAVE THAT CAR/ENGINE TO MALCOLM.
Deal is I do not know who has that car/engine today.

Obvious from the magazine pictures that Pontiac did create a couple of test engines "Mules".
We have "Mules" that run around in company vehicles too.

Bill Knafel had some pull with corporate GM but I would still have an issue with any prototype engine "being given" to an individual, as tight assed as GM is about that stuff. They have sued people who "acquired" special engines that went out the back door and in some cases they got the engines back. I do know of a Chevrolet "Porcupine" SB Chevy engine that got out that was a perfect example. Until GM found out about it.

So without pics of the engine in the car, it is just a story.

Pull out the engine and take current pictures of it and here come the GM lawyers.

Better to leave dogs lie.

Tom Vaught

[Tom Vaught]

In the article, it mentions an engineering concept called "Latin Squares".

Here is a link to the basic concept used in engineering:
http://designtheory.org/library/encyc/topics/lsed.pdf

Tom Vaught

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Malcolm MacKeller's 63 GP has been around for quite a few years, as many know. BUT GM GAVE THAT CAR/ENGINE TO MALCOLM.
Deal is I do not know who has that car/engine today.

The car and the engine have been separated.

The engine was removed while Mac was still living, and was in the posession of Mac's "friend" Kent Draper or one of his cronies.

The car was sold after Mac's passing to an enthusiast back east.

K

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

If I was a farmer in Ohio I could grow some serious corn in that state with all the manure stories I have heard from that place.

LOL -

I remember hearing Wangers say one time "....I don't remember those boys from Ohio being all that fast...."

K

[Blk12wls]

A couple things are curious to me. One is the statement that PONTIAC built the engine. The other is that to foundry one set of heads is a big project. Everything at the time was cast iron and that doesn't make it any easier. As bore restricted as the Pontiac is a hemi type engine is the only way to put huge valves in this bore size. This was a design the radial engines used during the war and applied by Chrysler. The close bore spacing shared with the Ford FE and Olds engines also offers transplant ideas. Last, GM had the racing ban on so any real race development was going to be done in some off site area. Like some engineers basement. No joke. I was wondering if this engine was still in the car. Apparently not and with good reason. Geoff, thanks for the PM. Very possible.

[J.C.you]

I don't see a reason why they could not have splayed the valves on a set of Vs.

[pont406]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

LOL -

I remember hearing Wangers say one time "....I don't remember those boys from Ohio being all that fast...."

K

guess Jim forgot about these cars

[pont406]

You might try contacting Merle Green, (current POCI President) as he is friends with the Knafel Family (he owns the Knafel 66 GTO "Tin Indian" drag car) they helped with pic and info when he was restoring it, also Arlen Vanke and Sonny Tanner who drove for Knafel may have some info to offer as well, I would think if these parts did exist they would have pics or memories of them .

[Tom Vaught]

Take the "Wood and Plastic" in the Knafel photos, multiply it by about 35, and you would have the basement display of a racer I knew in Florida. Trophy's were completely around a 50 foot x 80 foot basement perimeter 3 rows deep. The guy represented the USA in international competition some years later. Knafel's wood does not impress me.

Tom Vaught