[63Banshee]

Figured the decipher experts would enjoy another PHS thread for a Baltimore Goat. I don't know all the codes and will leave it to those who do to avoid speculation. I do know much history of the car (I've owned it for 25 years) and will share the background later.

[johnta1]

I'll start with easy one.



Dealer is Standard Pontiac in College Park MD

[63Banshee]

Interested in the 473 code. Hoping John V or Tom V can figure that one out.

[chrisp]

I am going to guess dash pad ?

[johnta1]

Do you have a pic of the cowl tag?

Have the P.O.P. maybe?

[John V.]

Easiest way to study the decodes is to obtain a copy of the article I wrote and published in the April, May, & June 2011 Smoke Signals.

Here's most of it:

Trim E - Black Lemans Interior
Color CCA - Cameo Ivory Lower Body, Cameo Ivory Upper Body, Black Wheels
303 - Wide Ratio Muncie 4 spd
31D - 4 bbl 389 (only available with GTO option)
32S - Standard Open Differential
33K - 3.23 Axle Ratio with Standard Brake Linings
350/366 - 7.50x14 Whitewall Tires (no charge tire choice for GTO in lieu of Red Lines)
431 - Back-up Lamps
44C - Deluxe AM Pushbutton Radio w/ Manual Antenna
452 - 2 spd wipers w/ washers
464 - Inside Tilting Day/Night Non-Glare Mirror
473 - Instrument Panel Pad & Electric Clock (this one isn't decoded yet with absolute certainty, anything you know to confirm or revise this decode is appreciated)
50A - Custom Sports Steering Wheel
605 - Visor Vanity Mirror & Remote Control Outside Mirror (since the car was equipped with all 3 mirror options, you can assume it was ordered with the Mirror Group Option, although unlike the '64 Pontiac & Fremont docs, the KC & Balt style doc does not indicate Group Options)
62A - Floor Console

Trans Code RB - Early code for the 4 spd wide ratio trans except when equipped with 3.90 axle (I have not determined why the trans code was changed to WY for some builds)
Engine Code 78 - numeric portion of the engine code, in this case, the 4 bbl 389
2K - Late code for the 3.23 open diff axle with standard brakes (different style coding was used early year)
FZ - Late year code for the 7.50x14 Whitewall Tires (early code was FY, haven't figured out if there was a reason for this code change)
Radiator Code 50 - 17.5" x 2" manual trans radiator, no oil cooler
Front Spring Code SR - All GTOs used these front springs except when equipped with A/C
Rear Spring Code PN - All GTOs used these rear springs, no exceptions
Speedo Code A - I believe this identified the Speedometer Driven Gear mounted on the trans, in this case specific for a build with 3.23 axle and 7.50x14 tires
Main Wiring Harness F - All V8 with Man Trans and no A/C
Engine Wiring Harness G - All V8 without A/C
Fan Belt Code AH - V8 with no options, single belt
I.P. Cluster Code 8 - GTO without A/C
Battery C - V8 Standard Car
Shock Sets WY - GTO Standard Shocks
Generator U - V8 37 Amp Alternator with Single Groove Pulley
Battery Cable FF - All A body V8
Radiator Hoses NK - 4 bbl GTO and V8 with A/C

Let me know if I missed anything.

And advise if you have the electric clock and instrument panel pad options.

[John V.]

Originally Posted by johnta1

Do you have a pic of the cowl tag?

Have the P.O.P. maybe?

John, Balt builds used the 5 Group coding but did not regurgitate them on the Data Plate, so the Data Plates aren't very informative.

Sometimes guys have found the Fisher Body Trim Manifests in the car and the 5 Group codes are of course coded on them.

Unfortunately, neither the I.P. Pad or the Electric Clock were coded by 5 Group codes so have to be deciphered by other means.

[63Banshee]

I bought this car in June of '88. Previously owned by John Clegg (PY member), who had it photographed for Car Craft magazine. Was in CC twice, once being displayed as the first car in the Car Craft Muscle Car Classics spread (see picture). Sometime before John owned the car, it was painted Marimba Red. It was not completely stripped down, but the front end was removed as well as all bright work short of the window channel trim (I found original paint there and under the carpet). The windshield had been replaced at some point before or after the color change. Original paint is still in the front and back window channels. I bought the car with 58k original miles on it. No evidence has been found that anything in the interior was changed or replaced except for the console (had a 65 console in it, which I sold). I may now question the tach if code 473 is ever decoded with 100% certainty. Based on the previous owner timeline I would estimate the first restoration work being done around 1980.

Trim E - Black Lemans Interior
Yes, still has the original interior

Color CCA - Cameo Ivory Lower Body, Cameo Ivory Upper Body, Black Wheels
Yes, original color still evident in many areas of stripped body

303 - Wide Ratio Muncie 4 spd
Yes, still has the original trans with vin stamped on top

31D - 4 bbl 389 (only available with GTO option)
Yes, still has original 78XW engine.

32S - Standard Open Differential
Yes, still have this diff loose.

33K - 3.23 Axle Ratio with Standard Brake Linings
Yes, still have these gears on original diff

350/366 - 7.50x14 Whitewall Tires (no charge tire choice for GTO in lieu of Red Lines)
Probably. The original owner seems to remember whitewalls

431 - Back-up Lamps
Yes, still has them

44C - Deluxe AM Pushbutton Radio w/ Manual Antenna
Yes, still has them

452 - 2 spd wipers w/ washers
Yes, still has them

464 - Inside Tilting Day/Night Non-Glare Mirror
Yes, still has it

473 - Instrument Panel Pad & Electric Clock (this one isn't decoded yet with absolute certainty, anything you know to confirm or revise this decode is appreciated)
Does have the padded dash, but no clock. Has an original 64 tach that may not be original to the car. Can investigate this further with original owner.

50A - Custom Sports Steering Wheel
Yes, still has the original wheel. I found what I think is a tag for it under the carpet.

605 - Visor Vanity Mirror & Remote Control Outside Mirror (since the car was equipped with all 3 mirror options, you can assume it was ordered with the Mirror Group Option, although unlike the '64 Pontiac & Fremont docs, the KC & Balt style doc does not indicate Group Options)
Yes, the car hasn't had a remote mirror since it was painted, but I did find evidence of the original mirror holes being filled. Still has vanity mirror.

62A - Floor Console
If it had a console from the factory it is long gone or was fitted with what we know as a 65 style console. I don't care for them anyway, so I sold it.

Trans Code RB - Early code for the 4 spd wide ratio trans except when equipped with 3.90 axle (I have not determined why the trans code was changed to WY for some builds)
Correct

Engine Code 78 - numeric portion of the engine code, in this case, the 4 bbl 389
Correct. Tri-power (since sold) installed sometime after original owner and before Clegg owned it.

2K - Late code for the 3.23 open diff axle with standard brakes (different style coding was used early year)
Correct

FZ - Late year code for the 7.50x14 Whitewall Tires (early code was FY, haven't figured out if there was a reason for this code change)
Radiator Code 50 - 17.5" x 2" manual trans radiator, no oil cooler
Front Spring Code SR - All GTOs used these front springs except when equipped with A/C
Rear Spring Code PN - All GTOs used these rear springs, no exceptions
Speedo Code A - I believe this identified the Speedometer Driven Gear mounted on the trans, in this case specific for a build with 3.23 axle and 7.50x14 tires
Main Wiring Harness F - All V8 with Man Trans and no A/C
Engine Wiring Harness G - All V8 without A/C
Fan Belt Code AH - V8 with no options, single belt
I.P. Cluster Code 8 - GTO without A/C
Battery C - V8 Standard Car
Shock Sets WY - GTO Standard Shocks
Generator U - V8 37 Amp Alternator with Single Groove Pulley
Battery Cable FF - All A body V8
Radiator Hoses NK - 4 bbl GTO and V8 with A/C
All above correct



How do we know what hubcaps came on the car and whether it had a painted stripe?

[63Banshee]

Originally Posted by johnta1

Do you have a pic of the cowl tag?

Have the P.O.P. maybe?

I do

[John V.]

Your car did not have any Wheel Disc option from the factory, hence it came with the standard hubcaps, commonly called "dog dish" style.

The Custom & Deluxe Wheel Disc options were coded in Box 48. Wire Wheel Discs became a factory option late year. I do not know where they may have been coded but they would have been a very rare factory option anyway as they were pricey. I think your GTO would have been very unlikely to have gotten them.

Wheels were painted a complimentary color with the standard hubcaps, but for a White car, the wheel color was Black, same as if it would have gotten a full wheel disc option.

Tach is most likely code 392 (see the decode I did for Champ in another thread.

The options coded in Box 47 are fairly certain as I.P. Pad, Electric Clock, and Glove Box Lamp. However, it is less certain what specific code was used for each of the 7 different combinations possible for these 3 options.

'64s did not have a factory pinstripe. That started for '65.

[63Banshee]

No stripe and povery caps, just how I was planning to show it. Perfect!

[Keith Seymore]

Good discussion (thanks JohnV); pretty car

K

[63Banshee]

Most helpful, John, thanks. I should send you money instead of to PHS...

[John V.]

My pleasure.

[gtoric]

Originally Posted by 63Banshee

Most helpful, John, thanks. I should send you money instead of to PHS...

From where did you get your documentation in the first place? Somewhere other than PHS?

I'm sure that JV will catch your money if you want to throw it at him. But, like it or not, if we want the original documented info for our cars, PHS is the only game in town.

Please spare us your snide remarks about PHS, I for one don't need to hear them here.

[63Banshee]

Originally Posted by gtoric

From where did you get your documentation in the first place? Somewhere other than PHS?

PMD

Originally Posted by gtoric

...
Please spare us your snide remarks about PHS, I for one don't need to hear them here.

Obviously in your world it is all about you.

[63Banshee]

Originally Posted by gtoric

....But, like it or not, if we want the original documented info for our cars, PHS is the only game in town...

Not a question to the poster, but could it be that PHS has made the Pontiac crowd lazy?

I and countless others have tracked down original documentation for other makes and models. I guess some would be amazed what can be found by tracking down past owners.

I've got a Corvette in my shop that has a Hollywood past, some racing history and the not so usual hardtop only option. None of these facts I would have known without research. Nothing spectacular, but nonetheless interesting. I'm now in negotiations with the original owner. He held onto the original docs for sentimental reasons. So far I have only copies, but it is likely the docs and car will be reunited one day soon (he's old)... and I won't have to pay him a cent...

[gtoric]

No doubt, original paperwork from past owners is the most reliable source of amazing documentation, especially if there is no financial gain to be realized from that source. By that I mean to infer that the temptation to fraud via altering copies of original documents is less of a temptation for those who will not realize a financial gain from this illegal action. Thus, previous owners may be a better source than current owners for reliable documentation, even copies, since current sellers might be tempted to alter documentation copies in order to maximize financial gain.

Copies of just about any document can be altered by anyone proficient in software like Photoshop. So, buyer, beware, especially when dealing with photocopies of original documentation. Trust only original paperwork.

Original window stickers, Ident-O-Plates, assembly manifests are all excellent proof of provenance. Owners lucky enough to have taken possession of a 40 or 50 year old car that has been through a half dozen or more previous owners, and still retains one or more of these original papers, doesn't need PHS documentation.

Tracking down previous owners is a tedious, hound-dog process that many current owners are not willing, or too lazy, to perform. Too bad, their loss. A lot can be learned from past owners, and it is, for the most part, well worth the sometimes considerable effort to contact these persons. Even if they don't have any original paperwork. Verbal recounts can be most enlightening.

For the rest of us, when original papers simply don't exist, PHS is the only source for this “birth certificate” type documentation. At any price.

[gtoric]

Originally Posted by 63Banshee

PMD

Then why are you complaining about the cost of PHS services if you don't need to make use of them?

Obviously in your world it is all about you.

I really can't speak for others, so in my world, yes, it obviously is all about me.

In my world, I find that we in the Pontiac hobby are lucky to have PHS as a provider of this first-source information on our cars. Complaining about inflationary price increases, or a lack of added value extenders like factory press photos and AMA spec packets, is a counterproductive action that serves no useful purpose. In my world, paying $65 for an otherwise unobtainable piece of paper that reveals to me how my Pontiac was originally built is not worth complaining about; even if that is the only piece of paper I get for my money.

Does PHS advertise the inclusion of anything other than factory billing histories and production information in their packets? If they do and they don't include these items, then you and we do have something to complain about. In that case I say hold their feet to the fire, complain to everyone who will listen, and boycott their service. If they deliver what they promise, you have nothing to complain about except the price. I just don't need to hear your opinion on what, if anything, you are willing to pay for this information. Pay it or don't—in my world just keep it to yourself.

From talking to many other enthusiasts about this subject, I'm sure that I am not alone in this perception in my world.

[63Banshee]

Originally Posted by gtoric

Then why are you complaining about the cost of PHS services if you don't need to make use of them?

Why don't you read thru the entire thread before making assumptions? http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=734765 You're trolling that thread too. All has been explained and the issue is closed.