[WARPed]

Or: why I chose CV-1 heads,
We, as Pontiac people have had a very tough road to follow for many years before the advent of the Edelbrock heads released out around 1995. Until then, we were circling the drain in the performance arena. These heads took new ways of thinking to extract the hidden power they held within. At first they performed "better" than iron, but we kept plugging away finding more and more power to where we are today - power levels that were not even considered possible back then. Then we had a few more heads appear on the market horizon and again each had its own learning curve as to what they like to work best. And yes, there were rivals amongst the Pontiac camp for all kinds of reasons - from "I don't have them so they are junk" to "they have problems of x or y" and all the way to even "then it isn't a Pontiac".
So enter the CV-1 head and because I embrace change, a departure from the current norm and in this case the divorcing of the pinched intake ports. But with this comes a need for a level of thinking - thinking outside of our "Pontiac comfort zone". At first our gains were modest but then some of us started to look at this head as an air pump and not a Pontiac air pump, looking around at other successful engine designs and starting to find that this head likes some of the non-Pontiac specific things that once hurt performance. Now nowhere in memory (of a credible stature) has anyone said anything about Tigers, HP's or Edelbrock are no good, just that we now have another branch of our Pontiac evolution tree.
With all of this being said, why can't we all work under the same big tepee, rather than having wars between all the different tribes?
　

[mike leech]

yawn. Maybe some say the are "bad". I don't and haven't. I've only asked the cheerleaders to "show results" as well as promise results. There have been disappointing examples of e heads, tigers, high ports, as well as outstanding (good) examples.

[67Beast]

I appreciate the new products and they will develop with time. I run in small tire heads up classes where a canted valve headed pontiac does not fit any of the rulebooks. It is not allowed, therefore I don't see myself or others looking to spend money, time and effort to try and maximize something we cannot run. I am not going to comment on performance as there have been enough comments made about that. However, it does get old from my perspective listening to differences in cost, which I will say with racing anything that makes over 800hp is a wash. Offset this , shaft that doesn't mean s**t. If you're going to play on this playground you will be spending $$$$$$$.

Hillbilly Out!!

[Brian Baker]

"We need to learn/adapt or be left behind..."

Just playing devil's advocate here, but...the quickest and fastest Pontiacs on the planet are still running inline valve wedge heads.

[Travis Q]

I certainly cannot speak for the Goateus Maximus team, but I can say that we sure don't run inline heads because they are better....

[LiL Jack]

Only the strong survive!

[60man]

I say bring 'em on.....the more the merrier. Life would be dull without choices.
MT strapped on some Hemi heads and they were cool...Cv1's have a place as well.
Maybe not for all but what the hey...

...and all the smack talk is to be expected...always there....

[Jack Gifford]

Originally Posted by Brian Baker

... the quickest and fastest Pontiacs on the planet are still running inline valve wedge heads...

I'm also just playin' devil's advocate, Brian.

Some wisdom in Travis's post. Reminds me of what Fritz always says about Mickey running Pontiacs those few years (" ... who in their right mind would race a Pontiac against a hemi?...").

[john marcella]

This chit is getting so old. Its actually frustrating. These head wars are being debated and promoted by the ignorant and misinformed.( not pointing any fingers and no disrespect to any)Just sayin

Just for the record, im going to say in my personal opinion ALL,EVERY SINGAL AFTERMARKET PONTIAC HEAD, FROM THE STAND POINT OF A ALL OUT RACE HEAD IS A PILE OF SHIIIIIIIT!!!!!!! Evey head is way behind in design by todays standards of a class A race only head.
With that out of the way you can see that there is no bias opinion, they all suck. Yes my Pro Ports suck to.

A canted valve head by design is far superior to a in-line head.
Reasons.
1. The valve on its axis drives away from the bore as it lifts off the seat.
2. Both intake and exhaust valves can occupy the same space at lift. This allows packaging larger valves and or better valve placement in relation to the bore.
3.Allows for better push rod geometry when attempting to have a large cross section port because the rocker can be rotated about the valve axis and push rod is at similar angle as the valve. Also makes for a lighter stronger rocker.
4. Allow for a more central located spark plug if there is enough chamber rotation.
5. If there is enough chamber or valve location rotation, this spreads the distance between siamese exhaust ports producing more uniform heat across the head. Or at least reducing localized heat.

Now with that said just because a head is a canted valve design does not make it better. All of the things and more need to be manipulated as much as they can be to see performance advantages.
Also when you design a canted valve head but still try and utilize the same cam and lifter bore lay out, The new valve train (push rods & rockers) now greatly dictates the INDUCTION LAYOUT. Almost always, the more you try and make things work with the with the stock lobe and lifter bore patterns, the worse the induction lay out is vs what it could be.

IMO the CV head has way more potential than a Performer RPM head ever dreamed of.
But when I say potential, I say that with a welder, Bridgeport and many die grinders in my shop. LOL
But im not saying that I think you need to move and change every thing on the CV for it to be better than the ehead. Im not, not saying that ether.LOL
Fact is I think the CV with just proper porting has more potential than any RPM ehead. But I also don't think that sets the bar very high. IMO

My thoughts on things I hear a lot around here.
"Need time to develop"------BS if its that much better it will show its face!

"Just glade we have so many head choices"-------IMO I am very discouraged to be a Pontiac guy with the choices we have. But I don't expect it to change because the market will not support a double throw down race head. I could design and make it but all I would do is waste my life savings and sell 3 sets of heads.





I hope this comes across as a informative opinion and not that of bashing or promoting.






POSPPTTFMF

[60man]

Originally Posted by john marcella

This chit is getting so old. Its actually frustrating. These head wars are being debated and promoted by the ignorant and misinformed.( not pointing any fingers and no disrespect to any)Just sayin

Just for the record, im going to say in my personal opinion ALL,EVERY SINGAL AFTERMARKET PONTIAC HEAD, FROM THE STAND POINT OF A ALL OUT RACE HEAD IS A PILE OF SHIIIIIIIT!!!!!!! Evey head is way behind in design by todays standards of a class A race only head.
With that out of the way you can see that there is no bias opinion, they all suck. Yes my Pro Ports suck to.

A canted valve head by design is far superior to a in-line head.
Reasons.
1. The valve on its axis drives away from the bore as it lifts off the seat.
2. Both intake and exhaust valves can occupy the same space at lift. This allows packaging larger valves and or better valve placement in relation to the bore.
3.Allows for better push rod geometry when attempting to have a large cross section port because the rocker can be rotated about the valve axis and push rod is at similar angle as the valve. Also makes for a lighter stronger rocker.
4. Allow for a more central located spark plug if there is enough chamber rotation.
5. If there is enough chamber or valve location rotation, this spreads the distance between siamese exhaust ports producing more uniform heat across the head. Or at least reducing localized heat.

Now with that said just because a head is a canted valve design does not make it better. All of the things and more need to be manipulated as much as they can be to see performance advantages.
Also when you design a canted valve head but still try and utilize the same cam and lifter bore lay out, The new valve train (push rods & rockers) now greatly dictates the INDUCTION LAYOUT. Almost always, the more you try and make things work with the with the stock lobe and lifter bore patterns, the worse the induction lay out is vs what it could be.

IMO the CV head has way more potential than a Performer RPM head ever dreamed of.
But when I say potential, I say that with a welder, Bridgeport and many die grinders in my shop. LOL
But im not saying that I think you need to move and change every thing on the CV for it to be better than the ehead. Im not, not saying that ether.LOL
Fact is I think the CV with just proper porting has more potential than any RPM ehead. But I also don't think that sets the bar very high. IMO

My thoughts on things I hear a lot around here.
"Need time to develop"------BS if its that much better it will show its face!

"Just glade we have so many head choices"-------IMO I am very discouraged to be a Pontiac guy with the choices we have. But I don't expect it to change because the market will not support a double throw down race head. I could design and make it but all I would do is waste my life savings and sell 3 sets of heads.





I hope this comes across as a informative opinion and not that of bashing or promoting.






POSPPTTFMF

I hear ya John. Don't take post as being a bashing..I'm not a engineer or a head guru.....just a end user. Still glad we have what we have....more than one choice/brand breeds competition and keeps prices in line..to a point. Must admit some of the BS gets out of hand...just like uninformed voters in elections..
I only know what my dyno sheet says and feel the power on track....something out of reach with "old iron factory heads".....not out to build a formula 1 motor.. Pontiac by design has limitations but it's what I like..not the limitations...Pontiacs.
I certainly respect your knowledge and skills. Thanks for playing with Pontiacs..

[Travis Q]

Originally Posted by john marcella

"Just glade we have so many head choices"-------IMO I am very discouraged to be a Pontiac guy with the choices we have. But I don't expect it to change because the market will not support a double throw down race head. I could design and make it but all I would do is waste my life savings and sell 3 sets of heads.

THIS RIGHT HERE X 1,000,000,000

[Tom Vaught]

Example of a different Head Designer's ideas on what, where, and how a cylinder head should be laid out for best performance.

Do you see anything different vs the Current CV-1 Head Design? A little Hint: Where are the Intake and exhaust valves in relation to the crankshaft centerline?

Not that you would ever want to spend the money to do this one off chit for a Pontiac BUT using this design you could possibly keep the UNTOUCHABLE 4.62x" bore spacing and still package very large valves in the head/block envelope.

Tom Vaught

How many Pontiac people would buy it - NONE so the guy would use the heads to hold up his glass coffee table.
You could have a great design but if there is no market what is the point.

[65nss4spdGTO]

Originally Posted by Travis Q

I certainly cannot speak for the Goateus Maximus team, but I can say that we sure don't run inline heads because they are better....

King Kinsler and Queen Jack, are you listening????


Calvin Hill
Hill Performance
708-250-7420

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by 65nss4spdGTO

King Kinsler and Queen Jack, are you listening????

Calvin Hill
Hill Performance
708-250-7420

To what Calvin?

Put the CV-1 car on the track against the people you mentioned above and move on.

Tom Vaught

[Jeff Kinsler]

Originally Posted by 65nss4spdGTO

King Kinsler and Queen Jack, are you listening????


Calvin Hill
Hill Performance
708-250-7420

EHTTFMF!

[LiL Jack]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

To what Calvin?

Put the CV-1 car on the track against the people you mentioned above and move on.

Tom Vaught

Tom, he doesn't want to put anything up against either of our cars at our weight.

He would get embarrassed.

I was just looking over Ultra Street rules and any Canted Valve head has a 50# weight penalty.

Hmm, I wonder why that is?

[65nss4spdGTO]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

To what Calvin?

Put the CV-1 car on the track against the people you mentioned above and move on.

Tom Vaught

Tom,

That post wasn't directed to you, but thanks for the concern.

BTW, the picture posted about a PS Ford head with the valves rotated around would require a new design block with the lifter bores in the proper location, but I'm sure you know that.

Calvin Hill
Hill Performance
708-250-7420

[fasteddy]

Old iron still works well in class racing. :0) But when it comes to all out go fast 6, 7 and 8 second cars, we have to rework the he__ out of our best stuff. If ya want easy quick, call Sonny Leonard. JMO

[Brian Baker]

Not bashing here...I welcome everything that is new too.

What I don't welcome is smoke being blown up my backside, on a product that is built around a superior design, that SHOULD outperform the archaic inline valve design, but to date hasn't. In continuing with the devil's advocate angle...why is that, if the design is superior?

[GTOGEORGE]

Brain,
Seriously what do you care you're not racing anything anyways.
Yes me and my car will be at Norwalk like always making my 10-20 passes during the 3 days of racing.


GTO George