[Alvin]

Not saying that it's in this issue for sure...but

I would suggest checking the Dec '93 issue. I used to have the complete issue of HMN but pulled out the page I wanted and "recycled" the rest.

IIRC: I remember reading a Brass Hat ad...around that time frame. No games, no guarantees, just seems like it was around that time.

Keep us posted!

[Lloyd-TX]

Originally Posted by Alvin

Not saying that it's in this issue for sure...but

I would suggest checking the Dec '93 issue. I used to have the complete issue of HMN but pulled out the page I wanted and "recycled" the rest.

IIRC: I remember reading a Brass Hat ad...around that time frame. No games, no guarantees, just seems like it was around that time.

Keep us posted!

Thanks for that clue, Alvin. A HUGE help for sure.

You'll be the first to know!

[Lloyd-TX]

Originally Posted by muscle_collector

i do have every old hemmings for at least 25 to 30 years. if i knew what month and year i would look it up (and would pass on the finders fee), but digging thru and reading evry old ad, no i would rather pull out the old playboys and read them.

Well, as Alvin posted in #61 above, the December 1993 issue might be VERY promising, Gary.

Would you mind checking it out?

Mucho thanks in advance!

[Held for Ransom]

NOT Dec. '93.

[Lloyd-TX]

Originally Posted by Held for Ransom

NOT Dec. '93.

Oh well . . .

Mucho thanks for looking, Mike!

[MikeNoun]

Would like to see an actual INVOICE showing a/c with a RAIV.

There were countless examples where brass hat cars had parts installed by the dealer at the request of the executive. If they were higher up, an exec's car may go through engineering to have something added.

Look at the recent story of the 1973 SD-455 car, built as a 455. The silver 1969 Firebird 400, used as the Trans Am prototype. The 1968 convertible Z/28. All these cars have solid proof they are what they are. They were built as one thing, and converted by the engineering guys. Very cool, very rare.

But unless someone shows an actual invoice showing a/c with a RAIV, I stand by the fact that they never built one at the factory. Most likely this exec's car was taken to engineering to have a/c added, or perhaps the dealer added it before the exec picked it up.

Not saying the earlier story is untrue, but when the guy says he "laughs when the 'experts' claim they never built one"....well, unless proof is provided, it's a sea story. And the classic car world is full of seas stories.

The HMM issues are neat, but again, looking at cars for sale in 1985, these cars were already 15 years old. Thrashed, beat on, maybe went through multiple owners, or perhaps original owners with fuzzy memories, or selective memory, as to how a/c got on their RAIV GTO.

I had heard another story of a 1979 Grand Am being produced with a 400 for the local zon rep in this area, along with a SkyBird with a 400 and dual exhausts, both stories coming from an excellent PMD tech that saw the cars when they were new as they were brought in for service. They were specially built by PMD for the zone rep, not unusual at the time, but who knows whether their INVOICE states they were built that way. If they were, they were one-offs. Most likely, they were converted by engineering.

Let's find the paperwork, then we'll know.

[Steve Hoog]

Mike I have to disagree with you on "adding" AC. That would be WAY too complicated compared to a Memo car; and I am talking factory AC, not some hookie after market business. In Engineering or the Dealer.

So it is most likely a Memo car or a bogus story.

[Alvin]

Sorry about that one guys. I only had one page left from that issue; page only goes back to 1971 Pontiac GTO Le Mans…

FWIW, I also looked in these HMN issues (AD NOT LISTED):

• March 2004 (White cover 50yr Collectors Edition)

• December 2005 (Transition issue w old cover w then new color cover image of 1976 Yellow T/A)


Great Gillman story in the OP…amazing that was SOP to consume mucho “Adult Beverages” at work. Reminds me of how it really was in those days. Wonder the car didn’t end up wrapped around a telephone pole.

Regardless, looking forward to when the ad is found!

[MikeNoun]

Originally Posted by Steve Hoog

Mike I have to disagree with you on "adding" AC. That would be WAY too complicated compared to a Memo car; and I am talking factory AC, not some hookie after market business. In Engineering or the Dealer.

So it is most likely a Memo car or a bogus story.

Yes, I agree. Adding the a/c isn't that difficult under the hood, the unit, pulleys, even the firewall changes are things dealers would touch frequently for warranty claims. But I forgot about the dashboard changes required for extra vents. Not that it's impossible, but yes, highly unlikely.

My guess is that it's a sea story. Probably a guy that remembers the car as a RAIV, or he was told it was a RAIV, or it just had RAIV stickers on the scoops.

Funny, I know someone that bought a brand new Cadillac with the V6. He was insecure and embarrassed to tell people it was a V6, so the day he signed the papers, he went to the Parts Department and bought the V8 emblem for the trunk lid. He put it on Day 1.

Lots of stories I'm sure about people doing things like this back in the day....

[Lloyd-TX]

Originally Posted by MikeNoun

Would like to see an actual INVOICE showing a/c with a RAIV.

There were countless examples where brass hat cars had parts installed by the dealer at the request of the executive. If they were higher up, an exec's car may go through engineering to have something added.

Look at the recent story of the 1973 SD-455 car, built as a 455. The silver 1969 Firebird 400, used as the Trans Am prototype. The 1968 convertible Z/28. All these cars have solid proof they are what they are. They were built as one thing, and converted by the engineering guys. Very cool, very rare.

But unless someone shows an actual invoice showing a/c with a RAIV, I stand by the fact that they never built one at the factory. Most likely this exec's car was taken to engineering to have a/c added, or perhaps the dealer added it before the exec picked it up.

Not saying the earlier story is untrue, but when the guy says he "laughs when the 'experts' claim they never built one"....well, unless proof is provided, it's a sea story. And the classic car world is full of seas stories.

The HMM issues are neat, but again, looking at cars for sale in 1985, these cars were already 15 years old. Thrashed, beat on, maybe went through multiple owners, or perhaps original owners with fuzzy memories, or selective memory, as to how a/c got on their RAIV GTO.

I had heard another story of a 1979 Grand Am being produced with a 400 for the local zon rep in this area, along with a SkyBird with a 400 and dual exhausts, both stories coming from an excellent PMD tech that saw the cars when they were new as they were brought in for service. They were specially built by PMD for the zone rep, not unusual at the time, but who knows whether their INVOICE states they were built that way. If they were, they were one-offs. Most likely, they were converted by engineering.

Let's find the paperwork, then we'll know.

I absolutely agree with everything above, Mike. Well put . . .

And as far as "adding the A/C" - prolly not. IF this car wasn't factory assembled as a IV with air, then I'd say the Ram Air IV engine was "added", NOT the air . . .

[Lloyd-TX]

Originally Posted by MikeNoun

My guess is that it's a sea story. Probably a guy that remembers the car as a RAIV, or he was told it was a RAIV, or it just had RAIV stickers on the scoops.

No "sea story" about the engine, OR the factory air, Mike.

Paul Dorton is a Pontiac enthusiast who has a fantastic memory.

He was a light line tech at Gillman Pontiac when this car was in the shop and knows the differences between the RA IV and a more pedestrian Pontiac powerplant.

[Lloyd-TX]

Originally Posted by Alvin

Sorry about that one guys. I only had one page left from that issue; page only goes back to 1971 Pontiac GTO Le Mans…

FWIW, I also looked in these HMN issues (AD NOT LISTED):

• March 2004 (White cover 50yr Collectors Edition)

• December 2005 (Transition issue w old cover w then new color cover image of 1976 Yellow T/A)


Great Gillman story in the OP…amazing that was SOP to consume mucho “Adult Beverages” at work. Reminds me of how it really was in those days. Wonder the car didn’t end up wrapped around a telephone pole.

Regardless, looking forward to when the ad is found!

Hey - it's all good, Alvin.

About the "adult beverages" . . . remember this was a Saturday, and the shop area was a ghost town except for the partiers, a couple of techs and a couple of make ready folks to get those 1971 new models ready for the Houston Show.

[Steve Hoog]

I agree with Lloyd.... If any mods were made in to the car in Engineering or the Dealer outside of a Memo car it would have been a III/AC car fitted with a IV engine. VERY possible; but of course that would blow Lloyds efforts out of the water, as you would have as much and issue proving this as you would one of the two Knafel Judges.

[MikeNoun]

I meant "sea story" as in fuzzy memory, not deliberately trying to deceive anyone, just sometimes people recall things differently, or have selective memory. I'm basing this on the fact that the gentleman states "they were all drinking" at the time, he's remembering something from 40 years ago, and he can't recall if the car was Bermuda Blue.

My guess is that it was a RAIII a/c car, they blew up the engine, had it replaced with a RAIV under warranty, kept the a/c.

[Region Warrior]

Agree.
Have to be a factory a/c car w/a RAIV added.
Done b4 leaving factory...could see that happening if you knew the rite people.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Way to go on finding the public library resources !
Big High Five ^5 to Lloyd and the gang.

I had forgotten how jumbled the older HMN was.
Thought it cleaned up in the later 80's at minimum.

From the research - when did they start getting civilized order in HMN ?



Sorry about the timeframe i was thinking not materializing.
But i'm totally serious that such a car was listed as what i stated before.
I'm absolutely certain.

It must have been more to the 91-93/94 timeframe.
Maybe PMD Invoices were going on when it was listed after all.
.... i do remember thinking "complete total bullshank" about the listing.
Plus it was Automatic.
All in all, i just did not pursue it one iota.

As a possibility, perhaps they had the PMD Invoice(s) and/or Buildsheet showing it actually was what was claimed. Speculation, but, in refelcting, it would have been asking for complete harrassment to advertise it in HMN with such claims in that day without supporting documents. If after 1990, at minimum.

i KNOW for sure PMD Invoices were going by some point in 1988.
i quit my job at a Cadillac dealer to switch from part-time Pontiac'ing, to Full-Time Pontiac'ing in latter part of 1988. And had already PMD'd a few cars prior to that.
Remember my excite when taking the Invoice of my $300 Judge into work and flaunting and daunting about it being proven genuine.

Another marker is that by mid 1992 the musclecar heatwave was cooling off fast.
By the end of 92 i quit advertising/prospecting/hoarding.
Quit subscribing to HMN either the end of 93, or maybe 94 at the latest.

So the ad "should" be between 91-93, possibly 94.

Happy that at least you guys found some neat stuff, and hit an unsuspecting BullsEye on the Silver 72 TA. That was awesome !

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

And something else, not saying you guys were not very very thorough - if not even completely thorough - but given the jumble of the data - and such else - there still exists a possible factor of +/- % accuracy in the complete exhaustion of the data.

Not that i would want to go back through all that mess again

But have high hopes the Crew can exhaust the remaining possible years sometime in the not too distant future.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Base or Ram3 with AC off the line would be my guess too - if it happened.
With Ram4 Memo'd or Engineered 997.

A company car would have at least 2 Invoices.

If when the car was sold from PMD, it contained a Ram4, then the Ram4 would/should be reflected on the latter Invoice. If it wasn't reflected as Ram4 off the assmbly line.
Similar to scenario of the Red 73 SD "Y" Test Car.

We do pretty much know basically certain that Joe Public could not go in and order a 70 GTO IV with AC, and have it assembly line built with full factory warranty. After the delivery fact - possibly, and likely w/o warranty.

PMD Hi-Brass, yeh i think it could have been arranged with a few strokes of the pen.
But it doesn't disprove the accepted general quotient of years of gathered data and examples.

That wouldn't technically reflect against the old test of time that AC was not something you could get with Ram4 from the factory. Even if the car is found and/or documented as Ram4 AC.

1-OFF or 2-OFF things are just very neat and very interesting.
They don't change the scope of what is inside the box for the masses involved with retail consumption. Different worlds.

John DeLorean could have driven a Neon Green 68 428 Ram2 Firebird with 0 miles at delivery if he wanted to - with AC and a 12 bolt - right out the door of the factory.
But my father could not have.

[Lloyd-TX]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

Way to go on finding the public library resources !
Big High Five ^5 to Lloyd and the gang.

I had forgotten how jumbled the older HMN was.
Thought it cleaned up in the later 80's at minimum.

From the research - when did they start getting civilized order in HMN ?



Sorry about the timeframe i was thinking not materializing.
But i'm totally serious that such a car was listed as what i stated before.
I'm absolutely certain.

It must have been more to the 91-93/94 timeframe.
Maybe PMD Invoices were going on when it was listed after all.
.... i do remember thinking "complete total bullshank" about the listing.
Plus it was Automatic.
All in all, i just did not pursue it one iota.

As a possibility, perhaps they had the PMD Invoice(s) and/or Buildsheet showing it actually was what was claimed. Speculation, but, in refelcting, it would have been asking for complete harrassment to advertise it in HMN with such claims in that day without supporting documents. If after 1990, at minimum.

i KNOW for sure PMD Invoices were going by some point in 1988.
i quit my job at a Cadillac dealer to switch from part-time Pontiac'ing, to Full-Time Pontiac'ing in latter part of 1988. And had already PMD'd a few cars prior to that.
Remember my excite when taking the Invoice of my $300 Judge into work and flaunting and daunting about it being proven genuine.

Another marker is that by mid 1992 the musclecar heatwave was cooling off fast.
By the end of 92 i quit advertising/prospecting/hoarding.
Quit subscribing to HMN either the end of 93, or maybe 94 at the latest.

So the ad "should" be between 91-93, possibly 94.

Happy that at least you guys found some neat stuff, and hit an unsuspecting BullsEye on the Silver 72 TA. That was awesome !

Great stuff, Todd. Thanks for the reply . . .

You know, it WAS tedious and time consuming going through all of those old HMNs, but with five of us working it wasn't ALL that bad. We made a fun time of it . . .

"tabob" was all over the old parts ads, had to get out my cattle prod a couple of times to get him back on the job at hand.

Everyone was talking the entire time, bragging about some of the old ads we found, ooh-ing and ah-ing over those 1980s prices and sech . . .

Finding those old ads from Schappaugh, Butler, etc. made it even funner!

And that Silver T/A was no doubt the icing on the cake!

We'll get back to the libary before TOO long - I hope!

Good times!