[Pepi]

Originally Posted by Bluesugar

Well said Charles!!,..Lets invent a radiator cap that has a turkey or some kind of meat thermo in it to give an accurate reading!!

There is, check out my thread from June.... http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=702434

[Bluesugar]

Thanks for the insite,..I'm out of touch but will look into this!

[GT182]

I've gotta agree 100% with Charles. I've had 3 60s Pontiacs that never overheated. My dad's 60 Catalina, 57 and 64 Star Chiefs never over heated, and neither did the Pontiacs my friends had back in the 60s and 70s. If they did something was wrong to cause them to overheat.

Pontiac didn't build cars back then to have the problems we're having today. They were designed like they were for a reason and ran as they should. The problem today is rebuilt pumps with the wrong design of the impeller, and repopped divider plate design that's wrong. It's been proven. You never saw a Pontiac divider plate that had to be beaten on to get the correct gap to the impeller. I sure didn't, and I watched mechanics back then change a number of water pumps on Pontiacs. It's how I learnt to do it on my own to save money.

There's a reason your engine over heats.....

1. Timing is off.

2. Vaccum advance is shot or you have no vaccum for it to work. Or no vaccum advance when you should have it.

3. Radiator is plugged or just plain no good.

4. Water pump is bad. That can include divider plates and/or the impeller is wrong. Or the divider plate gap is wrong causing cavitation of the coolant.

5. Heater core plugged. Do not use the red antifreeze... it will gell up in an open cooling system stopping the coolants flow. I've seen it happen.

6. The temp gauge isn't working and/or giving the wrong reading.

7. Sending unit is wrong or not working.

8. Thermostat isn't working as it should. It's either good or bad. And they can be bad right out of the box. I've seen it happen with a couple I've bought that were brand new.

You have to think about it all and check everything to see if it's the correct parts, and it's all put together right. All the above has been said before in threads on this subject. Mechanics from years ago and smarter guys than me on here have opened my eyes on the causes and fixes to keep my engine running cool like it should. It works if you take the time to think about it all.

With everything working as it should, the engine will run at the temp of the thermostat installed. If they run over that something is wrong. 190 and up is not normal.... no way no how, even on the hottest days of the year with a 180 thermostat installed. I don't care who says it's ok... they are dead wrong. But remember, Pontiacs back then came out of the factory with 190 thermostats installed. Why I don't know, but it must have been for a reason.

[goatwgn]

I fought "running hot" back when I installed a 455 in place of my 326- a problem that never existed before with the 326. All of this I dealt with about 25 years ago. Once I upgraded the cooling system to pretty much to a factory 389 AC model system, and sorted out the timing, it ran about 180 most of the time, even in hot weather. This will happen pretty much with any brand of car that you add that much extra power and displacement to before "upgrading" the cooling system. The original 326 setup had the small 4 blade fan-no shroud, and 3 core radiator. A 7 blade clutch fan, 4 core radiator,(I did install a big Griffin a few years back when I added AC, just for extra capacity), and the smaller AC water pump pulley is basically all I had to do. Since I have put an "add on" AC system in the car, it runs about 190-195. If someone is still running a high compression engine with mild cam timing, I can assume a lot of these combos will run hot, because you will have to excessively retard the timing to get it to run at all with the garbage they call gas nowadays.

[geeteeohguy]

"....190 and up is not normal...." If 190 and up is not normal, how does the car run below 190 degrees with a stock 190 'stat installed??? Expalain that one. Also, what about the '71 and up Pontiac V8's, which used a 195 degree T-stat?? I guess they were doomed to run at abnormal temps....above 190, anyway. Even Charles admits that he's seen "200 degrees at 80mph in the desert with the AC on". Also not normal, I suppose. I guess I'll have to agree to disagree. I do agree with much of what you folks are saying: that a system that is operating as designed will work extremely well. But, with variables like engine wear, fuel, outside temps, aftermarket waterpumps and radiator cores, these cars tend to run above T-stat temp....not always a lot, but some.

[GT182]

Jeff, one thing on temps. New vehicles these days are set up from the factory to run highter temps. No idea why but my Jeep GC runs at 205 to 210. Maybe for a better fuel burn with FI I guess.

[Old Goat 67]

What I said was'

"These cars came from the factory with 190° thermostats in them. Even then, driving them with the AC on across the desert at 80 mph, you would not see one go but about to 200°. I've done it. At the time it was running with a calibrated Stewart Warner gauge under the dash."

What you said was,

"My data comes from owning many GTO's over the past several decades, purchased and maintained as used cars for daily driver duty, as well as maintaining and repairing thousands of customer vehicles over the decades. These cars tend to run hotter than thermostat temp on a hot day, in my experience. Period."

And,
"I always run 160 'stats and my Pontiacs always run 180 or higher. Running 215-225 on a 100 degree day is not even an issue. I've owned and driven many Pontiacs and have found this to be a normal occurence."

The manual says,
"A pellet-type thermostat is used in the outlet passage in intake manifold to control the flow of coolant, providing fast engine warm-up and regulating coolant temperatures."

For someone that should know this, you are not letting your engines reach proper operating temperatures as fast as they should to prevent unnecessary wear, especially in the cooler months. No one should be running a 160° thermostat. If you are, and running 215-225°, then your cooling system is inadequate to say the least!

Mine and a lot of others must be adequate, because they are doing just what they were designed to do! Regulating at or just above thermostat! Go figure.

Stop spreading false information.

Charles

[geeteeohguy]

Charles, I am not spreading false information. Just my personal experience. If you have an issue with it, tough. I run 160 'stats because I like to, and I live in a hot climate where needing a fast working heater/defroster is a non-issue. I have owned and operated GTO's in the past with sub-standard cooling systems. These were used cars used as daily transportation and treated as such. They had not become "collectable" yet, so many were simply cheap, abused, used cars. I actually agree with your line of reasoning, and have no doubt about your personal experiences. You've been at it a long time and definitely know your stuff and have your opinions. It's just that your experiences have differed from mine on occasion. There are variables between cars, climates, and conditions, that's all.