[hellerods]

It isn't that cold out in the garage, I'm going to install a new bullet before I find out that what happens here. Come on guys, wrap it up!!!!!!!!!!! Where's the ugly baby ??????????

[cgeise]

Couple things to remember -- when your number one -- it only lasts till the next guy comes along - and Humility is a good thing -- it stops one from looking like an ass later on. Id like to throw in - we learn more by listening - even if we dont agree, than we do by talking.
My power went out 3 times while I was trying to type that dribble -- lol - ice storm out here.
But the point is - conversation good - argument = pointless

[68gtoMN]

Originally Posted by ho428

Come on Kurt, there you go pouring a bucket of logic water on before the fire gets going good.
I was wondering if we can set some sort of record for locked threads in 2012.

And the "law of unintended consequences" rears its ugly head yet again. sorry!

[BruceWilkie]

Originally Posted by John Langer

I guess you know more then I do...

Truth is, its quite likely You know things I dont and quite likely I know things you dont.

None of us knows the diversity of anothers background, their comprehension levels, or all the skill sets and knowledge someone may have aquired along their journey through life. An impressive resume doesnt qualify any of us as being better or smarter than anyone else. Nothing wrong with being proud of ones accomplishments. Belittleing others that havent accomplished what we have is self serving at best and actually pretty rude and arrogant.

Everyone is free to have their own opinion and free to express it AS OPINION NOT AS FACT. What one chooses to buy is their choice to make no one elses.

All of us should be concerned that new products and ideas continue to be offered to us. These may be things we personally have no need or use for, or made differently than what we might have done. Want to say so go ahead. Have some constructive criticism? Well lets all be constructive then. Want to kid about how your own stuff might be doing better at something than someone elses new stuff... go ahead... just be careful its done in a way thats interprets as kidding or joking.

Legitimate complaints like durability, poor service, not delivering on promises of the manufacturer/seller, price not in line with what you got for your money etc. should 1st be discussed with whom you got the product from and if you feel you havent been treated properly go ahead and post away. Just be sure you are in the right and have facts to back your claims.

For sure, bashing and armchair quarterbacking of new products does not encourage anyone to create and bring new products to our Pontiac community.

[miltmilton]

I too have always enjoyed the spirited (though sometimes pretty ugly) discussions on this and other threads and I have prided myself for not giving into my first inclination and give my opinions on any subject matter. Usually. This forum, like all other forums on the net as well as in our shop and most other folk's shops is a place where people (subject matter experts in some cases ) gather to share information and defend their positions. We always leave without hurt feelings in part due to a sign we have posted that is shown to everyone who joins our "community" that puts things into perspective:

"This is the place where brillant minds assemble to pool ignorance with questionable logic to reach stupid conclusions"

Please take this post in the spirit it was written in. We all don't know it all and facts are facts but we sure do have a good time thinking we know it all and then having to say Grace before eating crow.

[John Langer]

Originally Posted by 71 Ventura II

All "Hail" the KING of the checkbook racers John Langer!!! NOT a single portion of his car did he personally develop, yet he expects to receive full credit for it's performance because he paid the real talent who did. Your damn self-serving narcissistic "LOOK AT ME" BS is old!

Where's my pen, I want to go faster next year??? The not a single portion of his car did he personally develop is pretty funny... Lets see, lifters, oil pans, crank triggers, converters, trans parts, crank pullys, water pump, vacuum pump pullys...

[71 Ventura II]

Originally Posted by Half-Inch Stud

Holy crap LXXI-VTII, why be upset with Know-how?
Seem your rant has gone transparent on competitive performance knowledge (performance envy).

I figure Langer gets things done (per an expert's guidance, along with his own guidance) & pays up. Then integrates all these items, without letting (the collection of Experts' know who-is-who & what-was-what UNLESS IT IS WISE TO. For that Langer owns some IP. Get used to it.
================================================== ===========
Many examples of competitive performance IP exist.

For someone generally sharp you've totally missed the point of the responses. Please re-read the entire thread in regards to positions both pro/con for each contributor. Get back to me when the tally is accurate. JD

[Brian Baker]

Originally Posted by 71 Ventura II

1.) OK Brian, here's a few questions to help validate your qualifications. Have you, do you, or would you ever own a pair of CV1 heads?

2.) Without actually building a CV1 combo, what would be the determining expertise qualifying you to "Judge" any apples? Do you have a high level degree qualifying you as an expert of internal engine physics? Have you spent 30+ years building and dyno tuning performance engines? Just a few questions to validate your qualifications in terms of validity of opinion. Without the proper accredited and applicable credentials your opinion is pure conjecture.

3.) By the way will you ever get a car built or are you and Gach related? JD

Didn't your Momma' teach you it's not polite to answer a question with a question? LOL

1.) Validate my qualifications for what? To ask questions?

...have never owned a pair of CV-1 heads but yes, I would consider owning a pair for a project, but not before a pair of R.A. V heads from Lynn.

2.) Since I apparently have to meet such high accreditation before formulating an opinion, I could ask you the same questions...but...the questions I have asked are very simple, and don't require such a level of education and experience to comprehend an answer. May I suggest you reread Langer's #4 posting and place it in the context of my questioning, as I have already asked twice now? How can I formulate any opinion when nobody is answering the question(s)?

3.) I've completed 3 cars in the same timeframe Gach has owned his GTO...ok, technically 2 cars, the first a '78 T/A that ran 14's, and the 2nd a '79 T/A that ran 12's in street legal trim, and then was dismantled, gutted, caged, etc. and went 10's...and right now the 4th car (the funny) is still under construction...BUT WHAT'S YOUR POINT?

Let's not let this turn into yet another bash fest...let's keep it civil. I think the questions I have asked are valid. Proponents of the "Ford made for Pontiac" head, step forward and answer at will. Only answer coming close to answering my questions so far have been about Robin's car...and that's a good start, but not quite "apples to apples" when comparing a power adder to naturally aspirated.

[Brian Baker]

Originally Posted by 71 Ventura II

What is there to be affraid of concerning the CV1 heads? Where's the down side? It will either "Sink or Swim" and the product RESULTS will determine success. If the part doesn't produce it won't sell and the company goes belly up period. The CV1 heads have POTENTIAL which is why people keep investing in them trying to improve the end product. This alone speaks volume, generally people don't invest large sums of money just to fail. Obviously...

The only thing I've been able to pick out is the hurt feelings of past investment. Let's say you built a car, spent tens of thousands of dollars over the years getting every HP you could. Suddenly, a new product comes to market with/without the potential to match the substantial investment already made. Understandably it would be frustrating to even consider starting the procress over but wait!

This new technology is not mainstream yet, my "Investment" is proven, so there's no comparison. Really, this makes sense because? What are you affraid of? Possibly having parts available to surpass the old technology? POTENTIAL is what scares you!

Potentially not being the best anymore is a scary scenario; some ego's just can't take. JD

I can agree with everything you said here...except the "scared" part. From my view (outside looking in) I have seen proponents of the "Ford made for Pontiac" head make assertions that it is superior to the best Pontiac round port out there, and the round port racers said "Oh yea? Well show me"...and they're still waiting to be shown.

[71 Ventura II]

Originally Posted by Brian Baker

Didn't your Momma' teach you it's not polite to answer a question with a question? LOL

1.) Validate my qualifications for what? To ask questions?

...have never owned a pair of CV-1 heads but yes, I would consider owning a pair for a project, but not before a pair of R.A. V heads from Lynn.

2.) Since I apparently have to meet such high accreditation before formulating an opinion, I could ask you the same questions...but...the questions I have asked are very simple, and don't require such a level of education and experience to comprehend an answer. May I suggest you reread Langer's #4 posting and place it in the context of my questioning, as I have already asked twice now? How can I formulate any opinion when nobody is answering the question(s)?

3.) I've completed 3 cars in the same timeframe Gach has owned his GTO...ok, technically 2 cars, the first a '78 T/A that ran 14's, and the 2nd a '79 T/A that ran 12's in street legal trim, and then was dismantled, gutted, caged, etc. and went 10's...and right now the 4th car (the funny) is still under construction...BUT WHAT'S YOUR POINT?

Let's not let this turn into yet another bash fest...let's keep it civil. I think the questions I have asked are valid. Proponents of the "Ford made for Pontiac" head, step forward and answer at will. Only answer coming close to answering my questions so far have been about Robin's car...and that's a good start, but not quite "apples to apples" when comparing a power adder to naturally aspirated.

RAV kicks arse!!!

[71 Ventura II]

Originally Posted by Brian Baker

I can agree with everything you said here...except the "scared" part. From my view (outside looking in) I have seen proponents of the "Ford made for Pontiac" head make assertions that it is superior to the best Pontiac round port out there, and the round port racers said "Oh yea? Well show me"...and they're still waiting to be shown.

Definitely agree more testimonials are needed. imho In "Theory" the CV-1 heads have the potential to be superior. Unfortunately, theory doesn't always match the "Reality". "Proof is in the Pudding" bring on some tangible data both Pro/Con! JD

[BruceWilkie]

Being a street/strip type head the cv1 does fall into an easily mudded water. Granted some have set the expectation level rather high. However the std casting comes in starting out in wideport range. Initially felt capable of running right between a good wide port and a good set of Tigers. One of the pluses is you can run these on a std bore stock block if you dare. But most NA stock blocks arent going to rpm to where it could use all the flow capacity. Power adder motors dont always need the rpm to take advantage of their volume. Its likely why it seems to be doing well on the power adder cars like Arnies. It does have room to grow beyond the mid point as evidenced by ongoing port development. A good apples to apples might have been possible when Gach had a set and could have tested against his own wideports. Probably economy related that it didnt happen way back then. Maybe someone has done this already? If not,what is it going to take to see this comparison. I do know that those that have bought these have done better than what they had previous. Pdude found good results but not optimal for his hyd roller cammed combo. The smaller heads he has now are a better match for his combo. Goatracers 505 at 978 hp on the dyno isnt bad for NA on a n2o motor. On the track the combo doesnt show it largely due to being set up for running big loads of n2o. Best mph is down a bit for the power and weight. But again only a few mph.

Lets see what develops this year. Fighting over this stuff gets us nowhere.

[68gtoMN]

Interesting that my innocuous post regarding the difference between Argument vs. Bickering magically disappeared...

[Brian Baker]

In addition, the reason why I said let's keep it naturally aspirated, is because any power adder can make a marginal port into gold. Case in point...plenty of racers out there with E-heads running low 10's naturally aspirated...best my d-ports ever did in the Discomobile was an 11.40 @ 120, but add a 250 shot and I was at 10.12 @ 135, putting me right there with those E-head racers.

[Half-Inch Stud]

Historical Note: The PMD Head Engineers did leave PMD circa 1970 to go to FORD for Racing Head Development. Let's not forget that design relationship is a common DESIGNER.

MY opinion is Ram Air V is coolest with PMD factory heritage, and has the Intake CFM, while Pontiac-Dude Keeferly pointed out the Exhaust ports/flow was same-as Ram Air IV/HO, even in CSA, just individualized (which is modern solution to HOT Head-gasket temps there). YET, me thinks McCarty has further the PMD V Development with modern know-how.

Counterpoint is any aftermarket head can rock; D, Round, Porters' work, Wenzler(with Nostalgic value now), Tigers, CVs, KRE, E-heads, Billet, and them McCarty Ram Air V sets. I care less which is the "Top-Dog". I prefer cast-Iron heads. A laughing matter to Top-Dog Race folks. But that care doesn't disqualify my opinion. HIS

Geez: a Reliable aluminum block in my possession would immediately change me head preference to Alum. not even a "someday" item in this economic event horizon.

[BruceWilkie]

My point Brian, is this head hasnt been tested in a max effort combo like JL's. 978 hp from a 505 built for a n2o app is not a bad number. The intake has a large plenum spacer that may be better with n2o, the cam has alot of extra exhaust duration(IMO even too much for n2o), compression could be much higher, etc. etc..

Quite a ways back Mysticmissle's street car went 9.86 134 slightly over 3520 lbs. Pump gas NA quicker on a small shot. 511ci 10.7 compression, no porting, small tube headers at the time (1.75" iirc) basic single 4 cv1 intake. He's faster now with bigger headers and more fine tuning the chassis. I think 9.50's NA? Nothing fancy there... just something he put together on a budget. And he really does street drive it. Races it often as well. IMO he could push compression much further and/or run bigger shots of n2o if he has the traction to do so. Cam I speced for him had bigger shots of n2o in mind when I speced it. Cranking compression is low not quite 140 iirc. Certainly plenty more in that motor if he goes after it. I'm sure he will do what his budget allows. Quite a few running these heads and very satisfied. All so far are nowhere near max effort combo's. No one using them are complaining about pricing, quality or durability. Maybe take a look at their forum and ask the owners individually in private? I'm certain you can find a few that may have something that may not be a positive... but that holds true with all our choices. This who's is biggest this week is just a whacked way of looking at things IMO. Buy a head you like the looks of? Buy the head that will meet or exceed your goals? Buy the head that will work now and have room to grow later? HP per $? Other? Some or all the above?

I'm just glad we have choices we once had few of.

Was a time most of us would prefer a round port, wondered if we would even see a RAV and "liked" our D-ports simply because thats all we could get our hands on.

[Half-Inch Stud]

@BruceWilkie : excess Exhaust Port flow is never a problem because the Primary pipe length&dia can fix it for optimal. Always a non-problem.

QUOTE=Brian Baker;4527972]In addition, the reason why I said let's keep it naturally aspirated, is because any power adder can make a marginal port into gold. Case in point...[/QUOTE]

AGREED to this point: Porting an Intake system for flow is the FIRST (& PRIMARY) BOOST method.

[ho428]

I tend to think the only way this could ever be resolved is if one car and driver took one set of each head, prepped for his bottom end, using the same cam, same compression, same induction, and ran multiple passes with only jet and timing tuning allowed. And even then you could never be certain it's apples to apples. One set up may like a Dominator, another dual quads, more lift, less duration, etc...

To many other variables of car, driver, track, launch, gear, shift points, altitude, any number of things to compare just wins and et's.

Same car, same driver, same track, same effort on each pass regardless of head is the only way to solve it. Even then each camp would still debate the results.

It'll never happen, so the debate will never end. That's what long winters and forums are for.

[mike leech]

The problem isn't that its a bad head or incapable of successful combinations. The issue is the proponents or promoters claiming their parts are superior in ways they cannot prove. I like the design and for one would love to see less filler and more substance to the potential. I distinctly remember frank g's first tiger engine making 870 hp. With time and improvement those levels have increased as that heads potential was realized.
OTHER PRODUCTS WILL GO THROUGH A SIMILAR PROCESS.
This is expected. Its just hard to listen to "i told you so" when we aren't there yet. BTW more examples like Robins car but NA would put a sock in the critics mouth. I think it can be done, and needs so that those with claims can make them.
I am not vested either way and have no emotional agenda or axe to grind. Just pointing out what an interested person see's in these posts. Sooner or later im gonna need to make a change as my combo is cyl head limited. Its nice to have options. Opinions sometimes aren't as useful.

[Dragncar]

There are many things that try to be good enough at several different areas.
Cars, fighter airplanes, car parts.
The British Tornado Fighter/ Bomber is a example. Good enough at both things but dedicated planes are much better.
The CV-1 head is in the same boat.

Hard to get past it being a canted valve head that gets beat by all the inline heads.
In my mind its canted so it should whip ALL the inline heads.
Its still in 4-5th place.
E head beats it, both standard and WP.
The High Port beats it. I would take a High Port with a small port job over it any day.
We all know the Tiger beats it.
The new E head is going to destroy it.

Where does that leave the CV-1 ?
Its wheelhouse just might be boosted applications. Its has a somewhat narrow sweet spot.

Whats the point of going with a Ford looking SVO head on your Pontiac when a regular Pontiac head with its small 4 bolt valve cover head, siameesed intake runner manifold deal, whips it.