[spink7124]

Alright guys, here's my car.





Its an '80 T/A with a D1sc procharger on it. This is how it looked around the summer of 2005ish. I built all the brackets myself; they are dual 3/4" aluminum plate with five bolts holding it to the head.





The motor was a pretty much stock '76 400 with 4x heads (around 8:1 compression) a performer intake, cheap dynomax headers, a comp cams XE262, and the procharger huffing in 8lbs of boost. It ran great for what it was and I really enjoyed the car but then the motor started knocking. Upon disassembly I found this:





I had just become a victim of the dreaded thin main web 400 blocks! At this point in time I still had lots of interest in the car, and not only did I decide to make it faster but at the same time I decided to move the motor back six inches, seem weld the subframe, replace the bolt in subframe connectors with custom weld-ins, better brakes, better suspension geometry, custom front and rear motor plates, and the list goes on and on.









It seemed as if the project would never come to an end; I had bitten off more than I could chew, I ended up concentrating more on college, got a serious girlfriend and got into off roading and four wheel drive trucks:





If you're still with me, here comes the questions. My car has been sitting for so long and I desperately want to get it running again. The problem is I don't have much time or money. I have a 71 400 block and N crank that I was planning on an all out effort on: 260cfm d ports, aluminum rods, splayed mains, filled block, and around 15lbs of boost to try and make as close to 750hp on pump gas as I can. Trouble is I just don't have the money right now.

So the new plan is to get the car running as cheap as possible so that I can at least drive it. I picked up a 76 455 with 70,000 original miles on it out of a grandville station wagon (dude bought it for demo-derby, I know...sad!) locally for a very reasonable price.

This 455 is complete from top to bottom, including the factory 6h-6 heads which are said to amount to around 7.5:1 compression. I want to continue to run the blower on this motor with around 8lbs of boost and I was thinking a better option would be to run the heads off my previous 400 motor.

These heads are 4x 4h's, they have 2.11/1.66 valves, screw in studs, and come in right around 98cc's. From my calculations this should give me right around a 9:1 compression ratio- a lot for a blower motor I know, but also remember I'm not looking for max performance out of this thing, I just want to be able to drive it around again. My distributor is set up for about 36 degrees of total timing, with 12 degrees initial all in by around 2400. I am also running a MSD 6btm, so I can always dial it back a bit if need be.

Pertinent to this post is also my aquisition of an intercooler which I bought from Brad Spidel on this very board. It has 3.5" ins and outs, is 4" thick, 17" tall and around 34" wide.

I am also in need of a cam for this swap, and the same time I purchased the intercooler from Spidel I also purchased a cam it is a monster and probably way too much for my combo- its got 251/263 duration at .050, .530/.556 lift, and has a 114 lobe separation.

So to recap here are my plans: stock '76 455 bottom end, I plan of checking the bearing clearances and replacing the oil pump. Changing valve springs and swapping on my previous motor's 4x heads, Spidel's nasty camshaft, an old torker intake, and my procharger setup running 8lbs of intercooled boost.

So how does this sound to everyone? Will it run without being gutless down low? I know this is far from an ideal setup, but remember, I'm trying to use what I have as I really don't have a lot of time or especially money.

The car also has a richmond five speed and 3.08 rear and will probably come in at aroun9 3600-3700lbs.

Thanks for all the comments and suggestions!
Later,
James

[baron_]

Nice. I like everything but your gear shifter handle =]
Sounds rather similar to my situation and whatnot. New girlfriends can be hell on hobbies. And similar to my setup. I'm moving to a 461 with a 5spd
My girl doesn't know what she's in for...when warm weather hits. I"ll disappear with the car for quite a while

Where ya from?


Anyway, I'm thinking that cam is too large for your needs. Race or street car? SPidels cam is probalby designed for high flowing heads, race application?
The 4X heads might not be as bad as you think. If it's a stock 455, the pistons are probably down in the hole .020 or so, so your compression won't really be 9-1. Might be closer to 8.5-1. Possible to get some larger head gaskets?
I think i'd rather see the really low compression heads. They'd give room to turn up the boost and play around with it. Shave those 6H's if you don't want to find other heads
Of course, heads with chambers that large are easy to find and pretty damn cheap. Sell your other two pair and buy a set with chambers around 100+cc?
#66 heads, for example?

If i were you, I'd call butler and have them spec you a cam. Or, any of the other builders helping here - travis....P-Dude
They'll charge you a reasonably nominal fee to have a cam that will be tailored to your setup. Comp cams will custom grind you a cam based on their specs
$200 or less for a custom cam...would probably be the best $$ you spent, and you can sell Spidel's cam to help recuperate the cost?

[spink7124]

Baron,
First off, love your car. I am from Chattanooga, TN. Most people either love or hate my shifter handle; the grip is off of a Ruger Redhawk Super .44. I wanted little kids to look in the window and be afraid; the button on the top runs the line lock. I really like your exhaust coming out of the fender, btw.

You are right on my final compression ratio, I had accounted for the pistons being in the hole some, but I really didn't have much of an idea how far they'd be down; guess I'll have to pull a head for an accurate measurement.

So lets just assume with the head swap my compression ratio is somewhere between 8.5:1 and 9:1; with lots of boost it seems less compression would be more ideal, but I'm really not planning on much more than 8lbs for this incarnation. Also remember that a centrifugal makes a quarter of the boost at half the rpm (only 2lbs at 2500). Even though I don't plan on taking this thing past around 5,000, I want it to live for a little while and the bottom end will be completely stock, 34 year old parts.

I also forgot to mention my headers, they are custom built to fit the engine setback and mid-plate while still providing adequate ground clearance. They aren't clocked, but they have 2" primaries and are 32" long, all within an inch of each other. They are also not finished; this has been one of my more daunting jobs and I'll try and get some pics up in a couple of days.

Brad will have to chime in about his cam, but if memory serves me correctly he had it in a 389 that ran 10's with an old p600b running 12lbs of boost? I guess the real question I'm asking here is can I use it and still make some decent power, or is it just entirely too huge?

A custom ground cam would be ideal, but I would really hate to spend the money for a custom cam that is going on a parts combination that isn't optimized, but that might turn out to be the best route.

Another thing that I forgot to ask about is a blow off valve. I am obviously going to need one with the intercooler. Any options out there that won't break the bank?

Baron, hows that TKO holding up for you? With the last combo I broke and upgraded every driveline part but the centerforce clutch. The second gear syncro is going out and that means tearing down the tranny for about the third time; keeping a manual in a heavy car with torque is expensive...

Lets take a minute to morn for the Colts.
Later,
James

[baron_]

Nice.
I like the shifter significantly more after hearing what it is. =]


8lbs, stock parts, pistons down in the hole, shifting at 5,000?
Seems like you'd be fine. You're limiting yourself as you should.
I started with a stock '74 400 and did what you did...just threw it together and was reasonable with it. It lived until i went to about 15lbs of boost (then = grenade). All stock with 100k+ miles and already had low oil pressure, though

Current motor is a mostly stock 389 and holds up well to 12lbs


That's still a lot of lift, but I guess you've got nothing to lose. I was more concerned about it being reasonably streetable in a 455....i'm sure it'll make quite a bit of power


the ebay blowoff valves work very well
50 or more mm blowoff valves new, cheap. Less than $100 usually
That's what I and a lot of other cheapasses use
Just don't trust one of the ebay cheap wastegates


the TKO is great. A little hard to shift into third sometimes, but i think that's more because I'm used to a muncie. I hear these things commonly hold up to more than their 600 torque rating. I love not having to ever adjust linkage!


That a 'carb shop' carb? Works well for you?
From what I've seen, the carb is the most important asset to any combination....running fat enough can often save you (beside maybe the cam)

[aronhk_md]

From my inexpert position I'd have to agree with Baron........cam is going to be very important to your setup, and will probably determine whether the car is a dog. Also, making sure your pushrods clear and valve/piston clearance with that cam and whatever rockers you are planning...

Keep in mind, there may be someone on this board with a used cam that could be purchased reasonably, and you could sell the other to recoup the money. If that cam was designed to begin making power at 3500-4000 rpm, and you are planning to shift at 5000........well, it could be a real dog.

If you are going to use the 4x heads you are probably ok unless you want to run a lot of boost. Especially since you have an intercooler. Just make sure your ignition timing is set and operating properly to pull out timing as boost increases.

As for the rest of your setup.......the later year 455's are not as strong as the early year blocks, but I'm sure you've read that already. It is what it is. If I were you I'd spend the most time and a few dollars in your building prep. Make sure your tolerances are correct and everything is clean and goes together correctly as you assemble it.

Hey, I really like the brackets you made! Nice job installing the procharger

[spink7124]

Baron,
Thanks for the recommendations for the blow off valve. Yes it is a Carb Shop carb. So far, so good, I pretty much just bolted it on and went. From reading the plugs it kept things nice and fat so I rolled with it.

The more I think about it, the more I get unsure about using this cam. I am sure that it will make great power, but like already stated all that power might be at 7000 rpm!

Also, the more I read about changing valve springs, the more I realized this cam might cause me a lot of headache- even if I run a spring like the Crower 68404-16 I am probably going to have retainer to valve seal interference, and changing all that stuff around just to get my cam to work is gonna get expensive. I guess the only way to tell is going to be to start measuring things.

If that cam is a dog changing it in the car is gonna be a decent amount of work as well; the front timing cover is half of the motor mount.

What do you guys think about me using a Torker for an Intake? I've had recommendations that a single plain was the way to go, but those recommendations were when I was planning on running a lot more boost. The other option I have is a performer, but to me that seems like not quite enough intake at this level.

Thanks again,
James

[baron_]

Yea, forgot to mention that 36 degrees is way too much timing. To start with, at least

I run a digital 6 box that i like. I have about 35? degrees...and then pull 10 degrees out at 3500 RPM. So, I ensure that I don't kill the engine when it hits boost.
I started at 30 degrees/20 degrees....and moved it up when there were no issues
I also have a it wired up to a light...so I know that it's working

If you're just running the distributor, you should lock it out to 25 degrees and sneak up on a higher number. Makes it eaiest to tune when you aren't guessing when the mechanical advance is coming in


You'd be fine with piston/valve clearance with those larger heads. The chambers are big enough that it doesn't matter. Maybe not ideal, but won't matter.


Agree with the big lift cam. I actually run those 68404 springs and like 'em. But might be too big for those.

I don't really like the torker. I'm a fan of the holley street dominator for the reasons you stated. I figure it's a solid step up from the performer....single plane...but yet, reasonably low enough to fit under a hood
The new reproduction tomahawk/whatever it is would probably be nice too, but no cheap ones around.




that's interesting work with the timing cover - I like it
And I found myself eye-balling the gun cabinet. Neat idea to use a pistol handle. I've got some wooden colt grips that could look neat

[aronhk_md]

I personally think the regular performer intake (not the rpm), and the Torker (not the torker II) are poor manifolds for any engine, but especially a 455. Small runners and sharp bends on the performer. Lots of info on those on the forum though. A torker II or performer rpm will probably work fine for you though, and if you have other manifolds you can sell or trade to come up with one that might help as well.

As long as you get a manifold with decent size runners you are probably ok...the boost helps. Guys like Cliff R. have ported stock iron manifolds with great success on here, and I think one of those with boost would work just as well as one you'd spend money on.

[BILTIT]

'80 silverado with 52's up front? or 56's?

[baron_]

Originally Posted by aronhk_md

I personally think the regular performer intake (not the rpm), and the Torker (not the torker II) are poor manifolds for any engine, but especially a 455. Small runners and sharp bends on the performer.

Agreed.
I think a discussion of intake manifolds on here, as applied to boost...is long overdue

Lots of variables to think about, though.

Half of me thinks that smaller runners (as in size, not length) could help speed up throttle response at low rpm and low boost, which would pick your engine up down low?
This is what we may want....as we're not going for high RPM anyway (compared to a boosted chebby 350 or something)
And who cares about the angles in the manifold and that jazz, because we're boosting anyway? Might effect it a bit....but not much to care about?


Big runners (size, not length) would carry more charge....but wouldn't have the velocity of the smaller runners. Surely better for max race effort and high rpm - but not beneficial on the street for a pontiac motor that prefers the lower power band?
Maybe the performer has a place in a street engine?
The other engines, including the torker II and victor and even the performer RPM move up the powerband for your engine to 6500 or so. When you're boosting....that's going to further move your power band up (the effective band), as compared to an n/a motor

So, a boosted engine with a performer RPM might push that power band up to about 7500....which isn't want you're wanting when it's going to be soggy down low anyway
Meanwhile, the performer we all hate moves that power band down substantially...
Not to mention benefits to signal response on the boosters of the carb from smaller runner manifolds?




And then there's the intakes with different length runners. Aren't the two front ones in a performer substantially shorter and smaller than the two rear? Might that cause a distribution issue?

All reasons i chose the holley street dominator. Looks like the runners are all about equal length...relatively small....low rise...power band is reasonable....single plane
I might try the performer someday though....if i wasn't scared about the dual plane issue and unequal length runners

I don't know much about the torker II - are the runners on that all equally sized and whatnot?




Any of this unreasonable? Other thoughts?

[aronhk_md]

Good questions, but I'm not the one with answers...lol. My thought is that that possible increase in low end velocity might increase thottle response intially, but perhaps inhibit flow at mid to higher rpms. If you get good throttle response from 1500 rpm, but restrict after 3000 you'd still hurt overall performance. Not sure if thats the case though, as an 850 blow through carb is able to move a lot more when boosted. Good thoughts there baron, and perhaps someone with more knowledge and experience can lend their thoughts.

[spink7124]

Great thoughts guys, keep them coming.

Baron, I had the performer on the last rendition of my boosted engine and it seemed to work well enough. From reading the plugs I never noticed any difference between cylinders. I really just made the brackets, swapped carbs, bolted the procharger on and went. My MSD 6btm can pull anywhere from one to three degrees of timing out per pound of boost, so no problem there.

If you look at this thread: http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=471395 that is now several years old they and several other local people I talked to originally got me thinking about a single plane intake, but it looks like I might be on the hunt for a Torker II now, I dunno.

BILTIT, truck specs are as follows: '84 CUCV 1008, around 5.5" lift, 39.5 pitbull rockers, 52's front, stock 56's rear with a shackle flip, hydro assist, poly performance big black cock shocks all around, dana 60/14 bolt ff, 4.56 gears, lockright front/ detroit rear, clocked np208 t-case and flat belly, th400 tranny, 6.2 with the IP turned up, 1410 front d-shaft, every bit of 6500lbs but she goes good for a full size

[BILTIT]

Cool, mine is similar.

'80 K20 6'' lift,d60/14bff/4.56,36'' iroks (had 38'' swampers on at one time),stock length up front, stock 56's in rear with shackle flip, lockright/gov-lok, np205/th400/350sbc (soon to be 400Pontiac).

Sorry for getting off topic everyone!

[BruceWilkie]

If Brads cam is a solid lifter cam it wont be as radical as you think! Especially with the wide LSA and a 455. Id guesstimate you can get it to idle at 8-900 rpm and 10 to maybe 12" vacuum. It likely is too high a powerband for what you want to do though. A RA4 type cam wouldnt be a terrible choice with 1.5 rockers but with low compression it might be too soft at low rpm. IMO the crower 60310 solid 240/248 112 lsa would work real nice. Good idle broad powerband and done making power by 5500 and 6000 max rpm on a 455(with good rods). I would invest in a set of forged connecting rods. They are quite affordable. Even the low cost($200 ish) 5140 rods are a safer bet than using stock cast rods. The T1 is designed for good distribution with a qjet OR a holley. That said a performer will be fine for what you want to do. Turbo69bird ran a performer into the nines before he went efi and he was around 850 hp level with his 455.(studded 2 bolt with good rods stock 6h heads). Low compression with premium fuel motors like lots of initial advance. 24 ish if the starter lets you or use a start retard or use a switch to hold ignition off till you get cranking then turn ignition on. 36 degrees is too much total advance with boost. Detonation probably caused that weak block to fail. Id want ignition to retard back to around 24-27 under boost and below the 24 initial if you step up the boost. A slow 10 degree curve with stock type springs for a total of around 34 at 4000-4500 and boost retard as I mentioned. Vacuum advance can be set to add about 10-15 degrees for better mileage when cruising if you want just be sure to source vacuum from the manifold and not the part throttle port on the carb. Id try to shoot fro 8-8.5 compression with iron heads. You can mill your heads if below 8:1

[spink7124]

Bruce, thanks for the cam recommendation.

Stronger rods are not an option, I really wanna throw this thing together as cheaply as possible utilizing the best parts combo I can from what I already have, but I am open to suggestions though.

The cam is a solid lifter, and I was definitely thinking that the wider LSA and all those cubic inches would mellow it out some.

Interesting information on the Performer, the water crossovers are cut on my intakes, so trying them both back to back wouldn't be a hard thing to do. It seems like if I stuck with the performer that would certainly help my bottom end before I got into the boost.

I guess I didn't really talk about my expectations for this build, this car will probably never see the track because of the glass gears in the current tranny. If I made an honest 450 horsepower and had it live for a year or two I would be happy. Then when the time and money allows build a better suited combo to step it up a notch.

Keep the thoughts coming,
James

[BruceWilkie]

Id run the stock cam if in good shape(maybe add higher ratio rockers instead) in favor of better rods if it came down to stretching a few dollars. That solid cam is going to need better(usually slightly more expensive plus usually more machine work) springs than a hydraulic will.

Paul Spotts offers head kits that include new valves, springs and retainers etc at very reasonable prices. http://www.spottsperformance.com/Head%20kits The Crower 68404 hydraulic springs are "drop-in" replacements. He also sells Crower cams.

Pontiac Dude or Butler have forged I beam rods for $239.95 . http://store02.prostores.com/servlet...ods/Categories http://www.jbp-pontiac.com/products/...pins/rods.html. same deal. (but TN sales tax)

On budget builds I have re-used bearings if they were in good shape(even wear no copper, minor scratches ok and clearance still in spec but if in doubt relace them) Just keep track of where they came from and put them back. If bore taper ok remove any ridge and just lightly hone and re-ring. New rod bolts and resizing stock rods costs near as much as the 5140 rods.

BTW I have a good used set of SBF 1.6 ratio 7/16 stud Comp pro magnum rockers for sale. $150 if your interested. They work on a Pontiac (dont use stock bottle neck studs) and I didnt have pushrod clearance issue on my heads.(they were close though)

[62fatcat]

spink7124,
sorry i a hdn't seen the thread befor.
put ra4?5 cam in it. 308-320/ like .511lift on a 113.9 lobeseperation, hydraulick.
with the that intercooler, a ra4 cam, ported dports and 8.5:1 434combo it went 9.75 in the 1/4 on 1110 race gas and 16# of boost with the upgraded p-600 blower..
send me a pm if you need any help.

BRAD SPIDEl

[spink7124]

Thanks Brad, will do.

I am currently waiting for my tax return to get back, then I'm gonna start ordering parts and working on the headers, we have had nothing but foul weather here but as I progress I will keep this thread updated.

James

[spink7124]

Just a little update, I finally got my headers all tacked up. I am thinking of getting them professionally tig welded price prohibiting. They are 2" primaries that are 32" in length all within about an inch and a half of each other.

They are not clocked, and the collectors I built to maintain ground clearance between the mid-plate, block, frame, and ground. They end in 3" pipe and give me about 3.5 to 4" of ground clearance.

I've been working on these on and off for quite some time, so the funk on the tubes is just surface rust from my hands

[62fatcat]

The headers look great!!
Keep us updated.
if you have any questions you can PM. me or email me ponchospidel@hotmail.com
or call me 765-534-4359.

good luck with your project,
Brad Spidel.