Pontiac - Race The next Level

          
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  #21  
Old 08-06-2008, 12:50 PM
roadrage david roadrage david is offline
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its a flat tapt as is in mij engine as wel. superb performance that i can say

  #22  
Old 08-08-2008, 06:22 AM
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roadrage,


Now I’m worried. I'll be starting my new build Sunday. I’ll call Butler today to see if they corrected this problem. I bought mine 2 years ago. Looking down the pvc hole there is a baffle in their. Was there one in yours? Looks like a bent washer.

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  #23  
Old 08-08-2008, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 70 Lemans View Post
roadrage,


Now I’m worried. I'll be starting my new build Sunday. I’ll call Butler today to see if they corrected this problem. I bought mine 2 years ago. Looking down the pvc hole there is a baffle in their. Was there one in yours? Looks like a bent washer.
My Butler pan had the "baffle" that looks like a bent washer. It amounts to absolutely no baffle at all. Trust me when I tell you, if you run that pan with a pcv installed you WILL have oil sucked into your intake.

Look at how the Pontiac stock pans work. Two pieces of metal sandwiched together and spot welded. Oil splash can't get near the pcv inlet.

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  #24  
Old 08-08-2008, 12:53 PM
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Why the hell does Butler get away with building a POS part! Can I use a hole plug in the pan? Now I need to scamble to set up the valve cove pvc.

I confirmed an apointment with the engine builder for Monday morning. He likes to start all his builds. WTF
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69 400 Block, .030 over, KRE eagle stroker kt, KRE,CNC ported e-heads 310 cfm, port match RPM , comp roller 236/245@.05 586/600 lift 110 LS. 1.5 HS roller rockers, 350 Transmission, Red Neck tight 3500 stall converter, Ford 9” with 3.75’s, Strange center section, Moser 31spline axels, 29”Mt slicks, HRPARTSNSTUff anti roll system, Doug’s Headers 3.5” collectors, 22”Dynomax mufflers w/ H-pipe, Cliffs Q-jet, Fuel cell with sumps, Mallory 140 fuel pump and filter. Denny’s 3.5” drive shaft.

Last edited by 70 Lemans; 08-08-2008 at 01:12 PM.
  #25  
Old 08-08-2008, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by 70 Lemans View Post
Why the hell does Butler get away with building a POS! Can I use a hole plug in the pan? Now I need to scamble to set up the valve cove pvc.
They obviously recognized that there was a problem because they now list their valley pan with pcv provision to have a "New Double Baffle Design". Maybe they'd be willing to trade your pan, if it's the old design, to the new improved design.

Quote:
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=2]Aluminum Valley Pan With PCV w/Bolts, Gromment & Gasket- Not for Use w/ EGR Intakes -NEW Double Baffle Design incorporated in PCV provision to eliminate oil consumption through PCV valve
They have a link that says "Click Here" for pictures. But the link goes the this old, out of focus photo of the top of the pan, not of the "improved" oil baffling. I'd really like to see what they did underneath to keep the oil splash from reaching the pcv. I tried a lot of things, like putting in some mesh type material into the hole, fabricating a tube to lift the pcv up higher, etc. All without any improvement! I found a nice stock 1970 non-egr valley pan on eBay, which would clear my roller lifters, installed it and instantly my oil sucking pcv problems disappeared!

From the photo, it looks as though they addressed another issue I had with this pan, that is, it would not fit under the intake runners without grinding that area of the pan a little to fit.
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  #26  
Old 08-08-2008, 04:04 PM
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I call Butler an talked to Jim.(Very Nice guy) He said Valve cover breathers are for farm equipment and that is most of the peoples problem with these pans

I explained my concern and he said to run a evac system like OEM. He also said I could drop in another washer for added baffeling. Because I have an open air filter it would be less efficient so I will run both valve cover to the air cleaner. Hope this works.

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69 400 Block, .030 over, KRE eagle stroker kt, KRE,CNC ported e-heads 310 cfm, port match RPM , comp roller 236/245@.05 586/600 lift 110 LS. 1.5 HS roller rockers, 350 Transmission, Red Neck tight 3500 stall converter, Ford 9” with 3.75’s, Strange center section, Moser 31spline axels, 29”Mt slicks, HRPARTSNSTUff anti roll system, Doug’s Headers 3.5” collectors, 22”Dynomax mufflers w/ H-pipe, Cliffs Q-jet, Fuel cell with sumps, Mallory 140 fuel pump and filter. Denny’s 3.5” drive shaft.
  #27  
Old 08-08-2008, 07:03 PM
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I'm not sure I follow what Jim was trying to say. Valve cover breathers are for farm equipment? The evac system on our old cars consisted of a valve cover breather that was connected to the air cleaner base with it's own little filter element, and a pcv that was in the valley pan and connected to the carburetor base plate, among other things. In the case of the SD motors the pcv was located in one of the valve covers. My understanding is that the pcv evacuates excessive crankcase pressure and blow by gases during times of high engine vacuum, like at idle and part throttle cruise. When engine vacuum is low, the valve cover breather allows crankcase pressure and blow by gases to escape.

I run breathers in both valve covers and a pcv in the valley pan. A properly baffled, stock valley pan. Adding another washer is not going to do ANYTHING to eliminate the oil from being sucked into the pcv with that original design Butler valley pan, which they acknowledged by redesigning it. I can't say the same for their "New-Double Baffle Design" because I've never used or seen one. Maybe someone who has one can post their experiences with it.

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  #28  
Old 08-08-2008, 08:41 PM
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I think Jim is a great guy to talk to and knowledgeable for sure. But I think I might have had a pacifier stuck in my mouth or maybe I’m confusing what he told me. He did say to call back if I had any problems.

Sure sounds like good people to me. Yes new design makes me wonder. Johnsma22 can you call him to clarify?

Starting new build Monday morning or possibly Sunday after noon. Can I DO DAMAGE if I suck oil?

I've only been waiting 25+ years to get this Opertuity!!!!!

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69 400 Block, .030 over, KRE eagle stroker kt, KRE,CNC ported e-heads 310 cfm, port match RPM , comp roller 236/245@.05 586/600 lift 110 LS. 1.5 HS roller rockers, 350 Transmission, Red Neck tight 3500 stall converter, Ford 9” with 3.75’s, Strange center section, Moser 31spline axels, 29”Mt slicks, HRPARTSNSTUff anti roll system, Doug’s Headers 3.5” collectors, 22”Dynomax mufflers w/ H-pipe, Cliffs Q-jet, Fuel cell with sumps, Mallory 140 fuel pump and filter. Denny’s 3.5” drive shaft.

Last edited by 70 Lemans; 08-08-2008 at 09:27 PM.
  #29  
Old 08-09-2008, 02:31 PM
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Whoa, whoa whoa.

Sped-read this thread, and I I still think the smoking problem may LIKELY be due to some lifted umbrella seals at each Intake Valve stem.

Example: Big cam reversions allow the oil sucked from #2 valvestem to reach plenum and distribute to all the other plugs. Soooo, if you gots 2 lifted umbella seals then moreso looks like a global 8 cYL smoker problem. I've seen 4 umbrellas lifted: it turns a stout clean engine into a sick smoker in an instant.


Was I close?...

  #30  
Old 08-09-2008, 06:38 PM
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No doubt HIS that bad valve seals with make your motor a smoker of the highest order. In fact, that's what I first suspected when I started up this new combo for the first time. It smoked like a pig! I had brand new E-heads, but they were ported and assembled by a builder from CA who is not held in high regard around here, but who will remain nameless. At the same time that I was having the smoking issue, my intake was also leaking coolant at the bypass o-ring. I was in the process of pulling the intake and I found my pcv hose was completely filled with oil!

I talked to Butler about their valley pan and was told that it shouldn't do that and that I must have a problem elsewhere. It was obvious to me at that time that the "baffling", if you want to call it that, of the original design was not nearly sufficient to keep the pcv from sucking up oil. Proof of that is the fact that they have since revised the design. After much F'ing around I decided to remove the billet valley pan and install a nice 1970 stock non-egr valley pan and my smoking pig was no more! The smoking lasted for about 50 miles as all the oil in my cylinders and exhaust burned away. I had to clean the plugs several times during this process, but 6000 miles later and she's still smoke free.

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  #31  
Old 08-09-2008, 08:03 PM
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John, ahaw the overly-ported valley cover. Yes, the original engine designer was keen to de-mist the blow-by before getting it to the PCV pull.

The mist is rendered to cooled oil droplets to allow for drip-back, drain back to the valley, as you know.

  #32  
Old 08-09-2008, 09:46 PM
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:QUOTE=Half-Inch Stud;3379387]John, ahaw the overly-ported valley cover. Yes, the original engine designer was keen to de-mist the blow-by before getting it to the PCV pull.

The mist is rendered to cooled oil droplets to allow for drip-back, drain back to the valley, as you know.[/QUOTE]
Translation or layman’s terms

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  #33  
Old 08-09-2008, 10:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnsma22 View Post
I threw away that Butler pan, as I wasn't willing to pass my problem onto another person!
Threw it away? LOL seems like a dumb thing to do, those are good pans. If the pcv baffle is no good just dont use it. Lots of other places to put a pcv.

I agree with your choice to use a factory pan. The baffle that makes them so hard to clean does a great job of keeping the oil where it belongs.


Last edited by BVR421; 08-09-2008 at 10:07 PM.
  #34  
Old 08-10-2008, 12:11 AM
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I suspect I would've run into similar oil sucking issues placing the pcv in my un-baffled Butler valve covers too, LOL! Some stock parts just don't need to be improved upon. The Pontiac non-egr valley pan (clears roller lifters) is one of them.

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  #35  
Old 08-10-2008, 06:16 AM
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I also run a "non" pcv Butler valley pan, but would never consider running a pcv in the pan. The pan fitment sets a lot lower into the lifter valley than a stock pan and would definately be subject to heavy oil splash. I use a header evac system, but an OEM(Carb filter) probably would work if you're not running excessive crankcase pressure.

  #36  
Old 08-10-2008, 09:33 PM
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I decided to put the pcv valve in the valve cover. I just could not bring myself to leave it in a place thats known to have problems. Engine builder is coming to start the engine 10:00am Monday

I'ts been 25 years waiting for this day. Wish me luck!

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  #37  
Old 08-10-2008, 10:53 PM
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Good luck to you! Let us know how you make out.

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