[mike72x]

hello, this is my first time posting a thread on this section of 61 and older Pontiac. i currently own a 55 Pontiac chieftain and the original engine just spun a bearing. I'm not sure on how bad it is but there is a lot of metal deposit in the oil. i really wanted to restore it to a somewhat original look but i given up due to many event the cars been in. i really don't want to get rid the car I'm determined to try and upgrade the engine and brakes on this car. i read a lot of good stuff here but im really confused on were to start and how to start it. i currently have a (72) 350 engine with a th350 tranny. I'm on a budget with this car i really don't want to spent too much money on it. I've heard of the mustang 2 front end and fatman front end but i think i can do a poor man hot rod with this. what i want to do is educate my self on whats out there fore steering, how to install a later motor and how to get rid off the king pins and possibly change it over to disk brake. scare bird makes one but i heard of many other places the can change over the whole unit to ball joints using other part from other cars. please any ideas. any pictures.

[Bill Eveland]

Hi Mike
I've done what your wanting to do to your car.
I built side mounts for a newer engine, ball joint front end, and disc brakes.
There is alot to consider , are you going to do the fabrication, because labor isn't cheap these days.
The side mounts arent too hard to build

http://members.tripod.com/starchief57/techtips.htm#late

You don't need to get rid of the kingpins to add disc brakes either with the Scarebird kit.

Here's a few links on the ball joint conversion too

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...int+conversion

http://www.pontiacsafari.com/L1Garag...Conversion.pdf

You'll need a short tail 350 to clear the x member unless you end up mounting the engine closer to the front, than the radiator may need to be moved out in front of the support. Figure in getting a driveshaft made for the new trans and shifter too.
Depending on what the engine needed, if the trans was good, either rebuild that or find another 55-60 engine and bolt it in would be the cheapest and less time consuming IMO..

[mike72x]

hey bill, all those links you provided are really helpful. I'm actually trying to see if i can get started this weekend. i have a question for you bill, how will i clear the steering box. do i have to change that out to the 605 box? any more info on that? and i change it do i have to get a new steering column?
I'm anxious to try this, but unsure on the modifying the ball joints on my car. it seem u really have to know what your doing so u don't mess up the geometry on the car. i would hate to weld in the custom plate on my frame and find out my tires wear out funny because i did a bad job of properly placing them on the frame. thanks bill

[Bill Eveland]

If you have manual steering now, the 605 may be larger. I stayed with manual steering, I didn't like the looks of an aftermarket or newer model column in the car.

I don't have too much info on the 605 swap, one guy that did it sais he ground of the top area(peened) that holds the 55 pitman and swap it over to the 605 than welded it or repeened it some. One bolt lines up with the frame than made a support bracket .
One of the manin reasons I did the ball joints was everything on my front end was shot, the kingpin bushings were look in the spindle and I was worried the new ones may not fit tight. Since I had to rebuild everything anyway I went with the ball joint front end. I think originally in the article it was to get 8 lugs mounted up and also the servicability of ball joints over kingpins.

Another thing on the 605 mock up, the centerline of the pitman arm and height has to be the same or the steering geometry won't be right.

On the exhaust , when I mocked up my engine in, I used early GTO Lemans exhaust manifolds that had 1/4" between the gearbox for a drivers side rear exit. The engine sat up higher a few inches than stock to do this and back towards the firewall.

[Venturabubbletop]

Detailing a '61 Ventura? I am looking for information on what kind of hood insulation or sound deadening pads were found originally in the open spaces on the underside of a Ventura hood? There appears to be some sort of adheasive residue on the upper hood above the "cut outs" of the support or inner hood sheetmetal. I know that there may be a fiberglass blanket that may cover the entire hood surface, but there needs to be some sort of "sound deadening" needed as the hood has a real "tinny" sound without some sort of spacer. Also, what color should the inner hood be and if sound deadening is needed - again what color and material? More info will be needed later!! Thanks, VBT

[Pontirag]

you might also consider a long shaft auto tranny as it will extend rearward thru that 'X' member and give you yoke clearance.

[Stuart]

VBT, you should probably start a new thread when you have a question, otherwise it could get lost in the shuffle.

Having said that, the underside of the hood is a semigloss black, I believe it's the same gloss as the inner fender wells. There was some sort of black caulk originally put in between the inner and outer hood panels; I've never tried to remove it or replace it, and haven't had any issues with the hood sounding tinny when I drive. There should be a fiberglass sound mat as well. Most cars are missing the original and many of us haven't gotten around to replacing it, but you can get it from our hosts here at PY.

Here's a picture of a 12,000 mile original Catalina that was on eBay a while back, showing what the hood should look like.

[Bill Eveland]

To answer another question, the manual column has to be changed, the column and gearbox are assembled as one unit.

Fatman sells a install kit for a rack and pinion- which I havn't heard any feedback on if its any good or not or do like this guy and build your own, it would make alot for room not having the gearbox on the framerail.

http://crankshaftcoalition.com/wiki/...ing%22_to_Rack

[jhealey1967]

Why put a 350 in it? A late 50's Pontiac engine should bolt right in, and they aren't too difficult to find. Nowhere near the amount of fabrication work you'd otherwise need to put a completely different engine in it, not to mention a 350 would bastardize the poor Chieftain beyond belief. I have a Scarebird from disc kit, and the car stops on a dime now. There is no point in going through all the trouble to get rid of the king pins, much less swapping the entire front end out for a Mustang II set-up; the double A-arm front end on the Chieftain is a perfectly good suspension. The Scarebird conversion is relatively straight forward, and a lot cheaper than a new front end from Fatman. All in all, I spent about $700-$800 on the disc brake conversion, and stuck with the stock master cylinder. No fabrication work was needed at all. In addition, unless the inside of your engine is completely destroyed, most of the parts you need to rebuild the old 287 are readily available and reasonably priced. I am currently rebuilding my 287 as we speak. If only the crank is shot, CPR probably has one laying around. I bought a cherry '57 crank from them for only $150.

[mike nixon]

jhealy, how would installing a 350 pontiac bastardize the 55? i don't know for sure that's what he has but it's the way i read it.

mike

[Bill Eveland]

There is nothing really wrong with the 55 front end, although the 58 is very similar in design, but there are several advantages other than servicing the ball joints over the kingpins.
Especially for a ps car, when your mocking stuff up the caster can be made alot higher(2-3 degrees), I also included an anti dive angle into the control arms (10 degrees). The upright adjuster really limits how far you can dial in the front end , the shim adjustment can get it in better.

[jhealey1967]

Mike—Whenever I read "350," my first thought is a Chevy 350. I suppose he may have been referring to a Poncho 350? In that case, you're right, it wouldn't bastardize it... Either way, the 287 is a perfectly good engine. If it is ruined beyond repair, however, I'd look into a late 50's engine for ease of installation over the later engines.

Bill, any idea how much positive caster can be dialed into the kingpin front end? I'm thinking of having my car re-aligned...the steering is way too light with 2 degrees negative on radial tires.

[Bill Eveland]

Not much, the adjuster is maybe 1 1/2- 2" wide and a total of maybe 3" total for the adjuster and room to move it forward or backward. Depending on where it's at now maybe 1 degree. I would have to double check the actual measurments to be sure though.

The alignment procedure is quite differant on this front end with the upright adjuster, the caster needs to be set close first, than dial in the camber. There is a lock bolt that holds the adjuster in place . When I mocked up my front end, I set it so the caster would be 0 degrees, I have a manual steering car. Ps cars probably would like at least 2 degrees positive.

You can see by the pic, there isn't too much extra room, you really shouldn't see the exposed threads here, there are rubber rings that go around the adjuster on each side to hold the grease in.

[mike72x]

wow! i cant believe how much money has to spend to rebuild my stock engine. i called about 16 places out here in California and the cheapest rebuild was 3200. 3200 smacker for my little 287 and to be honest the guy seemed to be clueless about this motor. he was calling it a nail head then about half an hour into the conversation he called it a flat head. the guy had a lot to share but it was kind of scary to hear him call my engines all kinds of names. i think i rather fabricate motor mounts for my Pontiac 350 and a cross member for the transmission. i don't even want to find out how much money needs to be spent to rebuilt the original transmission.

[Bill Eveland]

At least one advantage with the newer engine, it will be pump gas friendly and have hardened seats. You don't need to make a crossmember, I made a rear mount with 1/2 plate steel about 2" wide and it sat on top of the lower flange on the x-member. I made another middle bracket with 1/4" plate to attatch to that than it would work with a stock th-350 mount.

On the other hand there are plenty of Pontiac guys out west i'm sure you could find one to help you out rebuilding your engine at a cheaper cost. You just need to find a good machine shop also.

[WDCreech]

Mike, you can do as a friend of mine did. Use the front timing cover (with front mount) on your 350, reverse cooling and all. You may have to fabricate brackets to switch to an alternator. You'de be surprised at how simple of a conversion it was.
He did this with a 400 and a TH 400, so he did have to do some messaging of the tunnel.

[Jack Gifford]

Originally Posted by WDCreech

... Use the front timing cover (with front mount) on your 350, reverse cooling and all...

That wouldn't help him. The crux of the problem is that wide mounts are needed somewhere on the engine/trans to resist driveline torque. In '55 they were on the front of the Hydramatic (or on the bellhousing, if stick).

I suggest investigating using the '55-style 3-point mounting with the 350/TH350. How about a midplate (like the racers use), modifying the ends of it to create wide rear mount points, and some custom fitting of cushions to the chassis? It couldn't be any worse than what people like Eveland went through to create wide front mounts. And the original '55 front mount bracket will bolt to any Pontiac timing cover. [This all assumes that he's not interested in merely dropping a '59/60 389 in place against the '55 transmission]

[Bill Eveland]

One other option would be a front motor plate, Or like a midplate like Jack said, exhaust is a tight fit on the drivers side though. At one point I was going to make some brackets to go on the backside mounting area on the trans where the bolts go thru and go down to the original trans crossmember on each side.

At least with building the side mounts you can put the engine where you want it to clear the exhaust etc. I raised my higher than stock and over to the right some so the exhaust would clear the gearbox and upper control arms, the 55 manifolds are really flat compared to the newer style.

If going with the original cover, you would probably want it machined for the newer style front seal also.

[Bill Eveland]

Originally Posted by pontiac jack

[This all assumes that he's not interested in merely dropping a '59/60 389 in place against the '55 transmission]

I agree , any 55-60 engine is a bolt in and alot less work and cost.

[jhealey1967]

$3,200 to rebuild a 287 sounds about right. I'm currently rebuilding mine and have already invested at least $2,500, including parts and machine work. I'm doing all the assembly/disassembly work, but machining costs are absolutely exorbinant. If you're not concerned with originality, find yourself a running '55-60 engine if you can. I saw a rebuilt 287 WITH a rebuild Hydramatic sell on eBay for $350 last year(!). I was foolish not to bid. Early rebuilt engines CAN be found, and it will save you time and money in the long run.


And the cost to rebuild a Hydramatic? $1,500. NOT something I wanted to attempt on my own.