[kaptinkafeen]

Hey guys,
wondering the following 1970-1973 - what colour was used on the 350cid small blocks? I have seen unmolested '71's with what appears to be similar to a (I hate to say the word on PY ) Ford blue, and I have seen '72's with more of the traditional Pontiac post 1970 blue (not the metalic). Can any clarify and If possible post a clear pic or two?

For example: on ebay 1971 pontiac 350cid link:http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/PONTI...spagenameZWDVW (item# 360012898355)

And I have attached a pic of a '72 350cid from a current ebay auciton: (ebay item #330203771140) if you scroll through the auction you will come across the same pic that I posted.
TIA
-Andrew

[rustedgoat]

Here is the image from ebay.

I'm not sure of the color but all the original 71's I've had (455HO and 350's) were that light blue that know one sells. I would check by the block or timing cover and see if the paint is the same. Heads, intake, valve covers can easily be removed and painted during common engine service during the years.

[Norwood]

Small block....... WHAT!!!

[2manyT/A'S]

Pontiacs didn't ever have "small blocks". That was chevrolet thing.

Big block/small block does NOT exist in PONTIAC terminology.(only people that don't understand or know this use those terms when refering to Pontiac engines)

326's-455 blocks are all dimensionally (externally) the same.
Even the lowly 301 block & it's smaller displacement brother are dimensionally the same as a 455 with the exception of the 301's lower deck height.

As I understand it,ALL Pontiac V-8's,regardless of displacement, were painted the same color in a given year. (73 had a mid-year color change up due to a run-in with the EPA)

A 350 2bbl & a 455 HO were painted with the same paint/gun

If you look closely at the waterpump picture in the auction,you will see some light blue paint underneath the Ford blue. That looks like the correct 71 color,although NOT likely factory on a 35+ year old water pump (they only lasted about a year)

[kaptinkafeen]

Originally Posted by 2manyT/A'S

Pontiacs didn't ever have "small blocks". That was chevrolet thing.

Big block/small block does NOT exist in PONTIAC terminology.(only people that don't understand or know this use those terms when refering to Pontiac engines)

326's-455 blocks are all dimensionally (externally) the same.
Even the lowly 301 block & it's smaller displacement brother are dimensionally the same as a 455 with the exception of the 301's lower deck height.

As I understand it,ALL Pontiac V-8's,regardless of displacement, were painted the same color in a given year. (73 had a mid-year color change up due to a run-in with the EPA)

A 350 2bbl & a 455 HO were painted with the same paint/gun

If you look closely at the waterpump picture in the auction,you will see some light blue paint underneath the Ford blue. That looks like the correct 71 color,although NOT likely factory on a 35+ year old water pump (they only lasted about a year)

Sorry to offend - And yes I realize that all Pontiac are externally the same L.o.L And I agree that it makes sense that 350CID and 455CID would have been painted the same colour, but I am not sure of this as there is no real info out there regarding the subject, (or at least I can't find it )
I was looking quite closely at an unmolest '71 350cid pontiac which to my knowledge has never been cracked open or repainted, and its colour is the same as shown in the ebay listing of the '71 350CID being auctioned. In comparison to the '72 that I included a photo of, there is a difference - to me I would argue that the colour as shown in the '72 auction is correct for block colour, but what puzzles me is that I have now come across more than one '71 350CID pontiac that are that same dark blue'ish' colour. Coincidence ? Anyone have any colour photo's of an original 350CID pontiac out of a '71?
-Andrew

[2manyT/A'S]

No offense taken HERE with your "small block" comment,we just have to "nip that thing in the bud". It doesn't belong in these cars OR this thread.


The odds of finding ANY 71 Pontiac engine with factory paint on it still are "slim to none",especially a 350. Most of it would be burnt off by now.
There was NOT a lot of paint put on these engines at the engine plant & even if you found one that had not been rebuilt,it likely would have been resprayed on the top end (with a WRONG color)when timing chain or cam & lifters were done.

[hot72rod]

My 73 still has the factory light blue (robbin egg blue) on the valve covers and block, well whats left of it anyways.

[unruhjonny]

there IS documented info on this exact subject.

2many is dead on.

If I recall correctly the colour was changed when there was a suffuceunt engine configuration differnce - eg compression, emmisions.

As I understand this means that engines may have first been identified by colour then secondary codes for servicing.

1967-1970 = metallic blue
1971-1973(early) = light blue
1973(late)-1974 = dark blue
1975-1977(early) = dark blue metallic

You get the idea.

here's a good link:
http://fiedlerh.home.att.net/enginecolor.htm

My '73 still had alot of it's paint at the time I tore it down (early build car), and my cousin's '71 TA had much of it's original paint (aside from the valve covers being painted a nasty ford blue!) when I helped take it apart for a rebuild.

[kaptinkafeen]

unruhjonny,
Thanks for that link - I couldn't find it while 'google'ing'"....

Strange that I have seen two identical coloured/painted blocks - one which looks totally unmolested. Humm. Conicidence as maybe this was the colour the previous owners were told was 'correct' ?
Thanks guys.
-Andrew

[unruhjonny]

Originally Posted by kaptinkafeen

unruhjonny,
Thanks for that link - I couldn't find it while 'google'ing'"....

Strange that I have seen two identical coloured/painted blocks - one which looks totally unmolested. Humm. Conicidence as maybe this was the colour the previous owners were told was 'correct' ?
Thanks guys.
-Andrew

One of the really sucky things about wanting the 71-early73 paint is that it ISN'T avaialable on this side of the 49th - to the best of my knowledge no one will ship spary casn of paint, and Canada Post will confiscate it if they figure out what it is.

I bought one can a while back, drove it over the boarder, then last winter due to a mishap, a broken pinion gear punktured my can... yup... all to waste.
I figure the next time I drive to LA I'll try it again (go directly to Classic Industries showroom and get another can - they're a short drive from my mom's place).

[giles]

Originally Posted by 2manyT/A'S

The odds of finding ANY 71 Pontiac engine with factory paint on it still are "slim to none",especially a 350. Most of it would be burnt off by now.
There was NOT a lot of paint put on these engines at the engine plant & even if you found one that had not been rebuilt,it likely would have been resprayed on the top end (with a WRONG color)when timing chain or cam & lifters were done.

Toomany, there are a few engines with some factory 71 paint on them (but darn little!).....
the oil pan and flywheel (not visible) that is. The paint visible on the front surface of the block is not original (from a previous touch-up done years ago with what was available at the time.
Thanks unruhjohnny. That link remains the best source for engine paint info that I have found.

[Scoles]

I have a '71 Firebird with a 350, the car seems very original. The car still has it's born with carb, alternator, distributor ect. The engine in my car is a YN code, which no Pontiac reference book shows as correct but it clearly has the car's VIN stamped in the block. I removed the engine for a general clean up of the car and engine and found evidence of the "dark" blue thats mentioned above.
I don't claim to be an expert but it seems to me that there are a lot of holes in the research that is out there. Is it possible that the smaller displacement motors got a different color?
I'm not trying to start something negative with the board members here because I really enjoy this forum and learn from it every day, I'm simply saying that MAYBE there is another color that's being left out of the color charts.
Thank You PY for a great web site ....
Brian Scoles.

[unruhjonny]

Brian,

Your post is pure speculation.

How do you excpect anyone to appropriatly respond to pure speculation which has zero factual bassis??

The answer is exactly what I quoted above.

The 389/400 were differentiated from the small bore 326/350 as well as the big bore 428/455 engnies by tha cast pyramid by the distributor.
Aside from the 'pyramid' the engine size was cast into the side of the block.
Aside from the pyramid and the engine size casting, the stamped block code was used to identify it.

I don't prentend to know what engines you are familiar with that lends you to this line of thinking, but this is akin to "conspiracy thinking" for pontiacs.

Theses engens have been documented for a very long time, and there is extensive material on the subject of Pontiac V8's - but there's not much to speak of with the engine paints except for what I stated above.

The specific 1971-1973 & 1973-1974 paints were not available for a long time, so alot of engines from that period can be seen painted another colour simply becasue during a time when it was serviced someon applied the wrong colour paint to it.
It is common practice of a good shop to paint an engine or engine part when it is removed for service;
this could be something as small as fixing a valve cover leak...

If you click on the link it should read as proof enough - I believe most colours even have mixing formulas created from oringinal paint taken from engines.

I would suspect your YN block is in the Pete McArthy book.

[Scoles]

In response to unruhjonny,
the point I'm suggesting in my post is that I believe there is more to learn when it comes to these cars-1970 to 73 inparticular. You yourself have pointed out exceptions to what is believed to be "correct" configurations, I refer back to the debate about chrome valve covers and air cleaners on '70 RA cars.
There is a possibility the motor in my car (a YN code 350 in an f-body) has been painted but taking into consideration the fact that the car still has all it's born with parts plus it only shows 49,000 miles on the odometer I believe the dark blue is original. (I may be way wrong and thats OK)

I simply think that all the research and all the references in books and on line are not complete, if it were then there would be no need for forums like this.


I respect the opinions of all members here and enjoy the debates when an issue is challenged but I must point out that I'm not speculating on the color of my block, I am questioning the experts- the authors of the reference material.
Brian Scoles.

[kaptinkafeen]

Originally Posted by unruhjonny

I would suspect your YN block is in the Pete McArthy book.

Actually this was discussed in one of my previous threads look here: http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=540790

There are many print resources on many makes of vehicles that are incomplete - Think of the inconsistencies in The Red Book. This is why WE ALL ASK question(s) for clarification and help.

No need for

Thanks again guys,
-Andrew

[johnta1]

YN was used in the B, A and F body cars in 1971.
It was a mid-year addition.

It was used with the TH350 tranny also. (early 350's used the 2 speed tranny)

[unruhjonny]

my incorrect chrome comment was because it is well documented that the '70 (and prior) Ram Air motors, had chrome, but there was no specific documentation for if the chrome package is used on the '70-L78 Formula - even the order sheets, and '70 Firebird catalogue don't show this.
I had based my opinion on:
1- what I observed on about half a dozen (what appeared to be) unmolested '70-L78 engines,
2- from the fact that I found no conclusive printed material that suggested the Formula came standard with chrome in '70.
I was wrong, and the proof was presented, by some people tha I know have much more knowledge than me. (some of my questions remained unanswered, but that didn't take away from the facts)

Sorry if my last post came off somewhat argumentative (since when have the "edit" options changed?? - one used to be able to edit thier posts prety much forever!) - this was not my intent.

I am not sure how other manufacturers identified their engines, but pontiacs did not use differnt colours based on engine size - the paint was a period thing.
By the later 70's GM was starting to standardize things so most non-chevy engines were painted the same metallic dark blue colour.
If you notice, the late77-82 & 1982-present paint is used for ALL GM engines - this was the first accross the board standard paint colour.
The only exception that GM had to it's "standard" paint colour was in the late80's through early 90's some high output versions of engines saw red paint (normally the red paint wasn not applied to the whole engine, but something up on top that was easily seen).
Some examples of this are:
- Fiero specific 2.8L motor
- 1991-1993 "W41" Quad4 (this was a step above the "High Output" Quad4)
I am sure there is at least one small block that used red paint... but I'm sure you get what I'm saying.

I agree that alot of information has been looked over in the 70-73 Firebirds - this is exactly why I have an interest in this area (I don't pay too mach attention to TA specific stuff, because that's well documented).

One of the things I find helps one make sense of things GM did, is to put it into perspective;
for your engine to be a different colour, that would mean that the pontiac engine plant would have to have had two paint colours (there is no documentation to back up your theory). The only logic for the 2nd paint would be a big change of some sort.
As you can see from that link I gave you, the early SD455's are documented as being setup with the early emmissions equipment, but after having to be re-certified, and have a differnt setup, the paint colour was changed to clearly identify the engines that pased the new certification - since the first run of SD engines were built prior to the change (assembled and painted), when the setup was changed, the new paint was applied on top of the first coat of paint.
The change over from the 67-70 colour to the 71-early73 colour is easily explained by the compression change.
The change over from the late73-74 paint to the 75-early77 paint is that starting in 75 the emmsions regulations had a HUGE change, the carburetors were completely recailbrated, and catalytic converters were added to all cars (not to mention that 1974 was the last year of true dual exhaust for the 2nd gen Firebirds).

If you put it into perspective, I see no reason why some 1971 engines would be painted "shade #1", while some engines were painted "shade #2", then all the 1972, and all the early 1973 engines were painted "shade #1".
(Also, I have absolutly no idea if there was more than one paint line for assembled engines - if there was only one paint line, it would be even less probable that a second colour would have been possible).

some food for thought.

[2manyT/A'S]

Originally Posted by Scoles

In response to unruhjonny,
the point I'm suggesting in my post is that I believe there is more to learn when it comes to these cars-1970 to 73 inparticular. You yourself have pointed out exceptions to what is believed to be "correct" configurations, I refer back to the debate about chrome valve covers and air cleaners on '70 RA cars.
There is a possibility the motor in my car (a YN code 350 in an f-body) has been painted but taking into consideration the fact that the car still has all it's born with parts plus it only shows 49,000 miles on the odometer I believe the dark blue is original. (I may be way wrong and thats OK)

I simply think that all the research and all the references in books and on line are not complete, if it were then there would be no need for forums like this.


I respect the opinions of all members here and enjoy the debates when an issue is challenged but I must point out that I'm not speculating on the color of my block, I am questioning the experts- the authors of the reference material.
Brian Scoles.

If you haven't already,it might be time to do a bit of "detective work" on your Ford Blue 71 Pontiac 350.

If you are finding NO evidence of light blue paint under the dark blue (look on Giles engine pic. for likely paint locations) there is a good possibility that the block & parts was hot tanked at one time & if that is the case,the frost plugs WERE likely changed out.
Jobber/replacement frost plugs generally have #'s & sizes stamped on them,where as most OEM don't.
Also check the engine bolts for OEM vs. hardware store style.(head marking & lack of washer face on the head are a dead giveaway on that) SOME not ALL may have been changed.
Also check for the original nylon tipped timing gear. (might still be there with only 49k?)

If the heads come off have a look at the piston tops for non-OEM style/markings.

Look at the head gasket edges (even with heads still installed) and you may be able to determine if replacement gasket were installed.

Is it possible that because it was a mid-year addition,it WAS painted a different color?

This is ALL speculation,BUT FUN!

Let us know what you find.

[Dens71TA]

A friend of mine bought a '71 Firebird in 1980 to use as a parts car and parked it behind a shed where it rotted away for the next 23 years. It was a very original car and something that wouldn't be worthy of being a parts car today. It had a 350 2-bbl engine with a TH350 and was painted the usual '71-early '73 teal blue.

[Scoles]

My engine will be undergoing a light restoration within the next couple weeks. It will get a thorough degreasing for a repaint ( 1970 light met. blue) as well as an intake manifold change and the addition of a set of headers. I will pay close attention to small details while cleaning and dismantling. If I see more evidence of the dark blue or evidence of a rebuild, be it partial or whole I'll let the members here know.
After seeing the engine on EBay that was posted by Kaptin I thought that it may be more then just a coincidence that both 1971 350's appear to be the same color.

Thankss, Brian.