[Tom Vaught]

Like I said, I think the pan and pump was used like a dry sump system. There is no way an engine will live with one quart of oil in the sump, without oil being stored somewhere else.

Tom V.

[Tom Vaught]

Like I said, I think the pan and pump was used like a dry sump system. There is no way an engine will live with one quart of oil in the sump, without oil being stored somewhere else.

[Tom Vaught]

Like I said, I think the pan and pump was used like a dry sump system. There is no way an engine will live with one quart of oil in the sump, without oil being stored somewhere else.

[MalteseFalcon]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Like I said, I think the pan and pump was used like a dry sump system. There is no way an engine will live with one quart of oil in the sump, without oil being stored somewhere else.

Tom V.

Tom, I'm sure you're right about the second part. In fact, the sump would probably have less than a quart because of the oil displaced by the pump and baffle.

But as far as this pan being part of a dry sump system, I have to disagree. If you look at my posts #7 and 10 above, it shows the catalog information for this oil pan. It also shows what comes with it - a pan, a pump, a pick-up, baffle, spring and lower plate for the pump. That's it.

VSE sold a dry sump system, its in the same catalog, and this pan isn't it. Its sold as an "Advanced Design Oil Pan and Pickup".

Plus, I've been collecting the contemporary magazine articles on VSE, and none of the ones that mention this pan mentions it being a dry-sump type system.

So - where does it have the capacity to store the rest of the oil it needs? If it doesn't leave the pan or the engine, there is only one possibility - the front part of the pan. Note that it is almost 5 inches deep from the rail to the bottom of the front part of the pan, and almost level until it gets quite close to the front of the pan. Is that deeper than a standard Pontiac pan? If the whole pan will hold 5 quarts below the windage tray, it doesn't matter that the sump only holds a quart, right?

Also, if you look at the link I posted above, you'll see a pan just like this one (not the dry sump pan) that GTOWAGON took off the old SCCA racer he bought. He's got the guts of it out in the open, and there's nothing but the parts that you see in the catalog picture.

I guess an experiment would be in order - what does 5 quarts of anything look like in the pan? I'll try that later tonight, unless Pete D already has his baking tools out

[MalteseFalcon]

1 quart:


2 quarts:


3 quarts:



4 quarts:


4 quarts plus the pump etc:



5 quarts plus the pump etc.

[MalteseFalcon]

Somethings wrong with the old thread. I posted two further replies, but they don't show up.

Short answer is that the thing has greater capacity than appears, as follows:

1 Quart:



2 Quarts:


3 Quarts:



4 Quarts:


4 Quarts plus pump / baffle etc.


5 quarts plus pump, baffle etc.

[Jack Gifford]

testing....

[Pete D]

I will measure things myself. My capacity info came from someone else. Sometimes things are too easy. Good job Steve!

[David Holmberg]

Threads I and II reunited.

[Skip Fix]

My 6 qt Canton GTO pan has an 8x10" sump 8" deep from pan rail. So thi is alot smaller.

I remember the VSE ads and also don't remember an additional oil mods. Looks scarey to me if not adding a BIG Accusump or two! Figure Lynn McCarthy has said checking his SS motor takes 4 quarts just to fill the system with good pressure and nothing extra in the pan!

[MalteseFalcon]

Thanks Dave!

Originally Posted by Skip Fix

My 6 qt Canton GTO pan has an 8x10" sump 8" deep from pan rail. So thi is alot smaller.

I remember the VSE ads and also don't remember an additional oil mods. Looks scarey to me if not adding a BIG Accusump or two! Figure Lynn McCarthy has said checking his SS motor takes 4 quarts just to fill the system with good pressure and nothing extra in the pan!

Skip, if the Canton pan is 6 quarts, the VSE pan is only a quart smaller, isn't it?

[GTOWAGON]

I have one of these pans on my 76 T/a SCCA car and it runs an oil cooler and an accusump both of which were bought from VSE back in 76

[GTOWAGON]

anybody else have trouble getting these pans bolted to the block mine was a real pain in the ass

[Tom Vaught]

1) I would be really worried about having much oil in the upper portion of the pan for crank windage concerns. You really want the oil volume in the pan to be in the SUMP not in the upper area.

2) In one of my posts I explained about how I saw the Grey Ghost Pontiac Tempest that had a HIDDEN DRY SUMP system built into the car with a normal
oil pump used to remove the oil from the pan and a second pump used to move the oil through the block. Ram Air V blocks had this feature in the castings. With this system you do not need a large rear sump as the volume of oil is in the hidden tank built into the car.

3) A accusump will store extra oil to be used to support the oil system on conditions when the oil runs away from the pick-up in the pan, it should not be used to store oil that should be in the pan.

4) Same deal for the oil lines and a remote oil cooler. That volume is basically in the lines continously and does not get pumped into the engine. The molecules of oil might change but if the lines hold two quarts then two quarts are needed in the lines all the time. They will not be in the engine when needed.

5) Looks to me like you actually have a 2 quart sump in the pan. Not enough to support the engine.

JMO

Tom V.

[MalteseFalcon]

So there has to be more to the story. I mean, its not like Herb Adams didn't know about the oiling requirements for a Pontiac V8 - he was one of the engineers responsible for the SD 455 program, was a racer himself, etc. It doesn't seem likely that he would design or sell an oil pan for use in competition that was obviously inadequate.

Tom, I appreciate your comments about the hidden dry sump system used on the Grey Ghost, but its clear from the catalog that there is no more to the package that was sold by VSE in the 70's-80's than the pan, baffle, plate, spring and rod. So while I don't doubt the veracity of that story, it doesn't explain why this pan has the capacity that it does.

VSE recommended a oil cooler as part of the Stage II package that included the oil pan, but not the accusump - so it wasn't part of the equation.

We must be missing something, don't you think?

We have Ken Crocie and Craig Hendricksen and other Pontiac legends making appearances on these boards. I can think of a few discussions (like this one) where it would be nice to hear from Herb Adams, too

For my own purposes, I'm building a Fire Am, so I'm going to use the pan. I want my engine to live, too, and if I understand your comments, Tom, the accusump won't help with the capacity issue, and this pan isn't going to cavitate from cornering. The only thing to do would seem to be to make sure the oil gets back to the sump as quickly as possible - so deburring the block, teflon coating the bottom of the oil pan and the top of the baffle, and the screen. Anything else?

[Jack Gifford]

Well... this sure makes interesting reading. I have to agree with Tom V, that the 2 qt. and 3 qt. pictures make it look like about a 2 1/2 qt. sump, which would make me very nervous- regardless of Glyptol, Teflon, or whatever.

[JC455]

Herb Adams is working for the same axle co. that is listed on the VSE info page. I think it's American Axle (?) in Michigan. I was lurking around on NastyZ28.com, and some guy was talking about doing the Adams mod to his rear suspension. He had some guy named Herb talking to him and finally put two and two together!
I'll have to see if I can turn up any info, as it would be great if Herb could contact us on his parts.

[KEN CROCIE]

Tom V --thanks for triggering a couple of memory cells. The "prototype" pan I referenced above came off of my 366 Nascar engine that was originally built by Tom Nell. This 366 had the cam drive pressure pump that was supposed to be SD455 standard issue. It used the standard pump as a scavenge pump. I can envision several yards of -12 and a cooler and dual filters as the oil "tank". It also had a special filter housing that had the SD type 80PSI cup and spring on the outside to provide an external adjustment option. The oil was picked up by the sump pump-sent to the "tank", returned to the cam driven pump (looked like a TH400 pump) got pressurized-and regulated, and sent to the oil galleries.

[KEN CROCIE]

Tom V --thanks for triggering a couple of memory cells. The "prototype" pan I referenced above came off of my 366 Nascar engine that was originally built by Tom Nell. This 366 had the cam drive pressure pump that was supposed to be SD455 standard issue. It used the standard pump as a scavenge pump. I can envision several yards of -12 and a cooler and dual filters as the oil "tank". It also had a special filter housing that had the SD type 80PSI cup and spring on the outside to provide an external adjustment option. The oil was picked up by the sump pump-sent to the "tank", returned to the cam driven pump (looked like a TH400 pump) got pressurized-and regulated, and sent to the oil galleries.

[KEN CROCIE]

Tom V --thanks for triggering a couple of memory cells. The "prototype" pan I referenced above came off of my 366 Nascar engine that was originally built by Tom Nell. This 366 had the cam drive pressure pump that was supposed to be SD455 standard issue. It used the standard pump as a scavenge pump. I can envision several yards of -12 and a cooler and dual filters as the oil "tank". It also had a special filter housing that had the SD type 80PSI cup and spring on the outside to provide an external adjustment option. The oil was picked up by the sump pump-sent to the "tank", returned to the cam driven pump (looked like a TH400 pump) got pressurized-and regulated, and sent to the oil galleries.