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gregsgtos2 · 01-14-2007, 04:41 PM

the judge conv is bone stock,numbers matching original engine and drivetrain from the factory born in the car.i also own the randy williams 2 door race wagon,63 tempest.if i still have it,this is the car i would bring to poci.i will take the judge conv.to the gto nats.

Steve Hoog · 01-14-2007, 04:47 PM

I got the the 68 Bird running, and I'm thinking it's good for a mid 12. That will be at POCI drags. I will probably have the GTO running by then; if so it will be there but I have no clue how it will run. I would be happy with low 12 right off the trailer. And now I have a major POS 68 Temptest I'm throwing all my extra parts in, it my pull a 12 if I'm luck and I'll either let my 15 year old daughter race it or my wife. 15 now that is.

I would love to put together an autocross during POCI, but we don't have any friendly lots here in town for racing. I'm working on a burn off show, I love those!

That would be some cool stuff to see that wagon down here, is it an 11 second ride? Too cool!!! I would suggest you throw that V motor you have in some POS car and bring it also.

Noel Drach · 01-14-2007, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gregsgtos2

john,i cant deny bruno has an awesome car.but i have owned several raiv cars and built a 69 rav car,there was no comparison.the iv engine and v engine are 2 totally differant engines.the iv is low rpm torqque and power,the v is a high rev,high rpm engine.it took me 2 monthe to get use to the v engine.the power in a v doesnt start until 5500-6000 rpms or better,the engine i had in that car could take 7500 rpms all day long,your iv engine would be laying all over the street at those rpms.the v was built for nascar and road racing,but needs help for the strip.it has to be wound out before it hits its powerband.so each of the 2 engines were built for 2 differant applications.i am not trying to take anything away from bruno,but if everybody thinks his car is stock,i disagree.

Did you over see the building of Bruno's engine? There are no saint's in poltics or pro sports or pure stock drag racing,but I don't think Brunos engine is to far over the "stock" line. Mark Weymouth's 70 Judge runs as good or better.Both these cars sound stock to me.If it were a ra3 SD,HO,tri power,etc,etc out there running those kind of numbers I would be crying foul myself.However since their RA4's the time slips don't seem out of line.

gregsgtos2 · 01-14-2007, 05:13 PM

the wagon runs in the 9s.it will be a 15 or 16 hour drive for me,so i am sure that i will only be bringing 1 car.hauling an enclosed trailer,so i will need to bring 2 credit cards just for gas.how much is racing fuel going for down there?

Steve Hoog · 01-14-2007, 05:19 PM

9 second car, WOW!

I just went and bought a few gallons a couple of months ago, and damn if I can remember how much it was. I want to guess $6 for 110. They sold it at the track the last time I ran out there regular a few years ago, otherwise there are a couple of spots around town.

gregsgtos2 · 01-14-2007, 05:37 PM

i think i will bring some with me,its 4.36 a gallon here for 110.the wagon is awesome.i listed it again today on ebay,but i dont think it is going anywhere.randy spent 180k building this car.it shuold probably be in a musuem somewhere,but i dont mind looking at it in my shop either!take a look at it,just punch in- 1963 tempest- on ebay motors.

tom s · 01-14-2007, 05:37 PM

Greg,with all do respect,comparing a lg CI 2-4 tunnel ram intake 14-1 CR V motor with a mostly stock IV is way off base.I have said it before and I have four RA V motors that stock against stock I think the 400CI IV will out perform a 400 CI V.JMHO,BUT that is not what this post was about and maybe a new thread shoud be started.Tom

Steve Hoog · 01-14-2007, 05:43 PM

Nice craftsmanship on the wagon, this pic showed me some one was serious.

gregsgtos2 · 01-14-2007, 06:03 PM

tom,i did say it was ALMOST stock.HEAVY on the ALMOST.

Steve Hoog · 01-14-2007, 06:10 PM

Here's the link for the dragstrip for POCI, says they sale Sunoco.

http://www.tulsaracewaypark.com/

J GLASGO · 01-14-2007, 10:15 PM

I see that we are still not comparing apples to apples in the 4 versus 5.A 14 -1 race motor with dual quads is not stock.The factory 5 intake is a 7000 rpm rev limiter,as far as the 4 being done at 6500,maybe,but the 4 and 5 bottom end is not all that much different,stock,neither of them are gonna live long.I can tell you that my stroked,rollered,12-1 5 motor,put up less mph with slicks,than my STOCK 4 motor with redlines,think about that!

Steve Hoog · 01-14-2007, 10:28 PM

Have or are any V's set to roll across the block at BJ?

gregsgtos2 · 01-14-2007, 11:25 PM

what was the et differance?

J GLASGO · 01-15-2007, 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gregsgtos2

what was the et differance?

Ram air 5 was a 12.4@110 with slicks,the Ram air 4 was 12.9 at 111,with redlines.Remember the 5 had a 4.21 stroke,and a roller.I have never ran the 4 with slicks,it is such a dog of the line with the close ratio transmission,that iam going to switch it back to wide.

Steve Hoog · 01-15-2007, 10:41 AM

John sounds like you got the same concern as me, what gears are you running with the M21 that you consider a dog?

brians · 01-15-2007, 12:41 PM

It looks like I have been missing RAV talk!!
A subject I can babble on forever.

Value first:
In today’s market a put together V car is worth the sum of its parts. The Hemi Chryslers seems to be the only cars right now where a put together is worth close to a factory car. Maybe Pontiacs will be there someday, but have not seen any evidence yet.

A factory Ram Air IV car goes beyond the sum of its parts and enters the high dollar investment/collector market.

I believe a factory Ram Air IV car does have a higher value then a put together V car in today’s market.
Now if the V car has factory ties or a race history then it could well surpass the IV. None have been auctioned that I know of, so it is just an opinion based on auctions of other factory/race history vehicles.

A RAV headed vehicle will always have the wow factor at the Pontiac shows, but from a pure investment, the heads and intakes have actually lagged. A virgin set of 400 V heads average price was about 2 to 2.5 times a virgin set of 722’s about 10-15 years ago. Now they are about 1.5 times the selling price. Intakes are about the same 1.5X. Granted, I don’t know why factory IV heads bring 3 to 4K, IV intakes can bring 2 to 2.5K and RAIV carbs are ridicules?? At least once and awhile, you can find IV parts at a decent price. Not a whole lot of people finding V parts at bargain prices. (Exhaust manifolds are a whole different ball game and always will be)

Car Performance:
Never have been in a RAV car with the factory camshaft and/or manifolds, only know what I have been told and read. Only talked to one guy years ago that claimed to have had a complete crate motor installed in a 1970 T/A in 1970 at Meliska Pontiac. He claimed to run 13.30’s without touching it. This was with headers though.

Make no mistake, however, as far as what a showroom, factory built IV car could run. They did not run 12’s off the showroom floor!! I have talked to multiple original IV owners over the years. ET’s were 14.00 to 13.70 first time out. I talked to one original 1970 W30 4sp owner that claimed he never went faster then a 14.10 the first week he had the car. The AHRA 4bl Formula stock record was only mid 12’s in mid 1970 for the 400 c.i. A body class. These were all out racecars with port matched heads, slicks, and headers.

Could a crate V engine car beat a comparable off the showroom IV car? My opinions – yes, but not by as much as you would think.

Reliability of the V engine.
Anything has the potential to break, but people should just stop messing with it!! The valves broke because people were trying to jam huge camshafts in them with high-pressure valve springs. Why? Run an aftermarket valve in the head if you were going to do that. Only 400 V bottom end engine we ever broke was the 68 F/B at the 92 Tripower Nationals. I was driving around the water due to it having 20 year old street tires and getting 2.2 second 60 ft. times. My brother wanted to try and heat the tires, so he jumped in it. Top of second gear, it threw out one of those great factory forged rods which took out the block. He did go a 13.20 at 79 mph.

Engine performance:
Intake design – sure it falls off above 7K. Most duel plane intakes do. Work with the camshaft and header design to overcome that. The Sunbird was shifted at 6500 rpm, 2950lb weight race ready with driver. Would go 9.20’s with an 850 Holley. Throttle stop was moved out so much to run 9.90’s that off the line response was terrible, so a 500 CFM 2bl was put on. Sunbird would still run 9.70’s all out. Same engine and trans with the 4bl eventually was put in a 2400lb GP to run the 8:90 class. factory single 4bl intake and heads were not touched. They were virgin castings with a .030 455 block and cast 455 crank.

Would I recommend anyone to run factory V heads today for an all-out racecar? No way unless you have them already and really want to use them. The potential in the aftermarket heads is the same or far greater for less. The V heads might get you brownie points in the pits by the lookers, but at the end of the day, your garage does not know what heads are on that car sitting there. But your wallet knows!!

I have a set of ported Eldebrock heads waiting to go on a 68 GTO if I ever get around to it.
I am too budget minded compared to my father to take a chance on really hurting V heads.
I’m not even sure why anyone would want to grind on a set of round port heads today.

Greg – That 63 is just amazing evertime I see it! Scott did an excellent job. I know it is tuff to race a show car, but I hope you or the next owner always keeps it that nice.

bruno17 · 01-16-2007, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gregsgtos2

well,i agree with you on brunos iv engine,i believe there are more than a COUPLE of surprises in there.ever here of stroked?

Busted by CSI Greg!!!!!! He's right,my car isn't showroom stock but it does conform to rules that govern "pure stock drag racing".It will be featured along with several other py'er cars in an upcoming magazine article showcasing the limits of an "nhra stock" Pontiac.
One thing is for sure....my engine will be torn down and be deemed stock by nhra standards. There is no stroker kit or roller cam! The integrity and respect amongst this group of racers is at such a high level that being caught cheating is akin to having possesion of kiddie porn! Yes my car does have Richmond 4spd trans with M20 wide ratio gearing along with "no hop" bars in the rear. I obviously don't want to grenade an original M20 and the traction aid is allowed in the rules.
Hey Greg.....shoehorn that V motor into any pontiac you've got that looks stock and we'll run 'em at Norwalk....heads up!.......maybe a side bet too!

BTW...engine tricks in my iv are ......balancing,rings,throttle linkage and meticulous attention to detail in the final assembly. Comp cams engineer could not find a better cam profile than the stock grind for a iv!!

Ask any questions....I'm an open book! Would love to see more and more killer ponchos in the top ten muscle car wars!