[BLUE67gto]

I've got a 68 400 out of a catalina with # 14 heads which is a lame 265hp because of 8.6:1 compression. The engine has been sitting in my 67 gto for a long time, the engine wouldn't turn over so I pulled a head and It has a fair amount of rust in the cylinders, I'm going to get it out this week and hopefully get it disassembled and clean up the bores and see how bad it is, I'd like to get away with just a hone and rering for right now, but I'm unsure at this point if the bores will clean up. I realize that I'd probaby be better of doing a real rebuild, but at this time I don't have the money, If I have to bite the bullet and do a full rebuild I was thinking about using this kit http://www.fastengineparts.com/products_view.php?id=369
can anyone recommend a cam and what I could do with the heads to get the compression up? should I just pitch them and get some better heads? i'm realistically trying to make 300 to 400rwhp I have a performer rpm manifold and a stock 4barrel, a q-jet and a holley to choose from. the car has a muncie 4speed and 4:10 rear gears, I've got about 4000 in the car including purchase price. I'm trying to build a car on an extreme budget and would like to keep the engine build under 1500, so any tips for an engine combo that would work well with the car and pointers to get the most bang for the buck would be appreciated. I'll follow up with a bunch of pics tommarrow. thanks blue

[matrix]

On my Pontiacs I always do stuff the right way. But I also race a "bomber" class dirt oval car. Bomber means cheap. So I have done a lot of very questionalble stuff screwing together 350 chevys for the race car. I once in a pinch put together a motor that i was sure wouldnt make it one race and it lasted the whole season. So as long as you dont expect this motor to last a hundred thousand miles I say do the following. Hone the cylinders and see how they look. You will have to make the call if they are too pitted or not. If you decide to go with it use cheap cast rings. They will do better with the crappy cylinder wall finish. If the cylinders ar just too bad find the cheapest shop in town and do the minimum which would simply be bore and hone the block .030. Then i would look around because I have seen people selling good used .030 cast pistons still on the stock rods very cheap. Even see some forged ones occasionally. Slide these right in after visually inspecting them and maybe having the big ends checked. Save the cost of new pistons and hanging on the rods. For a cam I would use the summit 2801. Cant beat it for $100 for cam and lifters. And dont get carried away with the budget motor and a stick with 4.10 gears!!!!! KABOOM!!!!

[1970gpsj4speed]

Well,I just did my 455 .i used Speed pro kit .Summit sells them for a little more than youre looking at but Id use forged pistons, those are not in that kit youre looking at.I like Speed pro rings better than hastings also,Summits cams and lifters are CHEAP made by Wolverive .I went with 2802 if i were you Id use the 2801 in the 400 .its like 80 bucks with lifters

good luck Bob

[1970gpsj4speed]

WOW,I just noticed that kit includes cam ,lifters and timing chain and gear .it says upgrades aval .ask what the upgrade would be to go to forged.i had about 680.00 in mine with cam and lifters no timing set,nothing wrong with a speed pro cam either just find the specs you want

[BLUE67gto]

I e-mailed them today to see what options they have. I know this engine isn't going to last that long if I just rering it, I just want it to last for a year or two, till I can build something nice. I guess the other thing is it's going to be a real dog with these heads, Can I do something with the #14 heads or should I find something else?

[455Grandville]

Keep a eye out in local clasifieds or trader papers; Ive seen alot of abandoned engine projects that were already finished for cheap.

[sixt8bird]

Originally Posted by 1970gpsj4speed

Well,I just did my 455 .i used Speed pro kit .Summit sells them for a little more than youre looking at but Id use forged pistons, those are not in that kit youre looking at.I like Speed pro rings better than hastings also,Summits cams and lifters are CHEAP made by Wolverive .I went with 2802 if i were you Id use the 2801 in the 400 .its like 80 bucks with lifters

good luck Bob

I dont get why you would go to a 2801 in a 400? Please explain? Im running one that is a bit bigger ( Crane 226-234 at 114 degs)which is very similar and Im running 1.65 so it makes it 230-238 and it idles great, runs on pump gas and does mid 12s in a 3810 lb car. It never gets over 175 even in traffic and power brakes work great. Give me one reason why not to run a 2802? Thats if yu ditch the #14 heads and get some decent heads. If you dont, kiss your 300-400 rwhp out the window for good. It wont happen what ever you choose for cams.

[BLUE67gto]

Yeah, I really would like to get rid of the heads, I'm just not sure what to look for. I know where I could get a set of 670's, what would that boost my compression to? I've heard 6x heads are good but I am also wondering what else to keep an eye out for, I'd like to end up with something that will run well on pump gas. This will be my second engine build ever, my first being a very basic chevy 350 for my 72 k5. so I'm not super familiar with pontiac heads and performance parts.

[*67firebird*]

a .030 400 with 670 heads will put you around 10.48cr.
not safe for pump gas
get some dished pistons. a little pricy but its the easiest way to drop compression with 670 heads.

Sixt8bird, what exactly is your specs on that cam?
and can you let us in on your engine combo and drivetrain. thanks.

[sixt8bird]

Originally Posted by sixt8bird

I dont get why you would go to a 2801 in a 400? Please explain? Im running one that is a bit bigger ( Crane 226-234 at 114 degs)which is very similar and Im running 1.65 so it makes it 230-238 and it idles great, runs on pump gas and does mid 12s in a 3810 lb car. It never gets over 175 even in traffic and power brakes work great. Give me one reason why not to run a 2802? Thats if yu ditch the #14 heads and get some decent heads. If you dont, kiss your 300-400 rwhp out the window for good. It wont happen what ever you choose for cams.

Sorry about this post as the 2802 would be way to much for such a low compression engine. Had a few drinks and didnt read about the low compression until after I sent it , then I added the (Thats if yu ditch the #14 heads and get some decent heads. If you dont, kiss your 300-400 rwhp out the window for good. It wont happen what ever you choose for cams)

[screamingchief]

a .030 400 with 670 heads will put you around 10.48cr.

Uhhh try again,a .030 400 with 670's will usually end up right around 10.1:1,this assumes using the more common L2262F30 TRW pitsons which are almost always .020" in the hole and a "nominal" 72 CC head spec,which is usually closer to 75 CC on a virgin 670 using a .040" gasket.

With a 75 CC head the CR drops to the 9.8:1 neighborhood.

Use the 8 relief cast pistons and the CR will be even lower than this.

A "zero deck" 400 with the L2262F30 pistons,.040" headgasket,and 72 CC chambers will yeild appx. 10.5:1 compression.

Giving "generic" advice/numbers on a deal like this is a waste of time,have to take each combo on it's own,and use the numbers you actaully have (or at least intend to have) instead of relying on "advertised specs" from most any source.

Plenty of online CR calculators out there,use them,dont count on somebody else's advice/numbers,I usually use this one at BRC pistons website,it's fast and easy and will get real close providing the data input is good:BRC pistons CR calculator.

I usually go conservative with my compression ratio choice,ask me and I'd recommend spending the money for good machine work before most other concerns,regardless it's expense,then save money elsewhere.

I would use the L2262F30 TRW/FM forged pistons,have the block decked and run those pistons at "zero deck",and then get a set of 6x4's,mill the 6x4's to acheive their "nominal" 89 CC spec,use a .039"-.040" compressed thickness headgasket,and live happily with the resulting 9.0:1 compression ratio,and never worry about what gas you using,or if your exhaust valves are sinking into those 670 heads.

With that hardware I myself would'nt be against running the 2802 myself in a combo like this,should run plenty strong,essentially a RA III manual trans combo,as the 2802 is similar to the 744 cam,the only real difference would be 1 point less CR.,though this combo should still yeild a very useable DCR,and offer plenty of power.

Will need a small convertor for best results,say 2400 or so,and will want some gear,and it will want a good intake (like that RPM you mentioned) and carb,along with a good exhaust.

I dont think it will yeild 400 RWHP,but it should get close to that at the flywheel easily,likely 370 or better at the flywheel if done correctly.

Some nicely done head porting would likey get the extra HP to get the RWHP numbers well up into the 300+ RWHP neighborhood though...

The performance parts for sale forum should be your best friend right now,live in that sucker and be the first person on the "fresh meat",you can save a ton of money there,hell I've picked up NIB pistons in there for what most pay for a new cam...

HTH.
Bret.

[DAVE RIBEIRO]

ScreamingChief,

Very good post on building a good reasonable 400ci...I think the guy
would be plenty happy with the driving and performance on the street/strip.... I agree that smaller is always better than too big !!!
A 2,200-2,500 stall and a 3.55-3.73 gears will really wake that puppy up...Yes, on regular street gas to boot.... Keep that compression low and it will last for ever, work on the over all combo, not just compression.. Dave...1033/stock

[*67firebird*]

screamingchief,
thanks for correcting me i was just going by the calculator on wallaceracing.com, i was just assuming the deck height would be .000

sorry. didnt mean to hurt anyones feelings if i was off.
but let me just say "usually" is not good enough make sure you know the exact CC on your heads so that you know exactly what CR you are looking at

(no pun intended)

And green light for the 6X4 heads, i was looking at those but since i already have the 670 heads im just going to get some dished pistons and not have to worry about buying another set of heads.

[screamingchief]

Nothing wrong with 670's,got a set on my racecars 406,but it's going to be fed a steady diet of leaded high octane race fuel per it's needs.

The "other" thing that I alluded to earlier,was being concerned about with "hard" street use is the exhaust seats on those 670 heads,now I know folks will chime in here "I ran those for years on unleaded,no problems..." or such,as they always do with most any subject discussed here,so I'll just concede that's JMO.

I went ahead and had hardened seats put in my 96's on my 455 in my "street/strip" bird,for my piece of mind as far as that relates to this.

But stuff like hardened seats add to the cost again,funny thing is one way or the other the money gets spent,use older heads that need a bunch more work and the costs can escalate quickly,,,or,,,use a pretty decent 6x with just a slight mill,good valve springs and a basic valve job and spend the money you saved there vs. using the older heads by getting the bottom end zero decked,which pays more dividends down the line as it relates to octane/compression "issues".

Having the pistons in the hole is'nt a desirable thing,and when possible it should be avoided,so I advise that folks consider that very carefully for their builds.

Dished pistons are fine when done "right",but often that will add cost too,as doing it "right" frequently means custom pistons,that,or dishing an existing piston like the TRW/FM pistons.

And even a dished piston works best at or close to zero deck,so that money should be spent there regardless...

I'm not a fan of the KB pistons (dished or otherwise),so to me they are'nt really a viable option,again JMO,if you want to debate that there has been plenty of threads here on that subject,feel free to revive one of those,or start another one,but I wont take part,waste of time IMO.

At least that's how I see it.

Bret.

[BLUE67gto]

So, stay away from the 670's? let's assume I get away with just a hone on this engine and can reuse the stock pistons? It only had 60k on it. too bad it sat for so long. would the 6x be a good choice? I may just have to put the #14's back on and not make any power if I can't find something that works! I'm really trying to build a budget engine here, so If I can get away with out putting pistons in it I will. I know it's not the best choice,but I'm on a really thin budget, and just want the damn thing to run so I can get the car on the road and enjoy it!

I just got the jim hand book tonight, It's already got me thinking.

Screamingchief

i noticed in a previous post you mentioned using a converter and some gears, this engine will be going in front of a muncie 4speed and a 4:10 rear in a 67 gto. will that make a difference? Will that be a good match to 2802 or a similiar cam?

[screamingchief]

Screamingchief

i noticed in a previous post you mentioned using a converter and some gears, this engine will be going in front of a muncie 4speed and a 4:10 rear in a 67 gto. will that make a difference? Will that be a good match to 2802 or a similiar cam?

I forgot 'bout you having a manual trans,but if you reread the comment "quoted" below that I made earlier,it all makes sense,the 2802 is real close to the factory 744 cam,which was used as the factory RA III manual trans cam,so yes it would be a good choice IMHO.

myself:With that hardware I myself would'nt be against running the 2802 myself in a combo like this,should run plenty strong,essentially a RA III manual trans combo,as the 2802 is similar to the 744 cam,the only real difference would be 1 point less CR.,though this combo should still yeild a very useable DCR,and offer plenty of power.

This is also why I can safely say if that cam were used in a well built engine it should make roughly 370 HP at the crank,as the RA III was rated at 366 hp,and has been shown to be pretty much "spot on" those numbers.

As far as the 670's go,like I said already,they're not a bad head,also not the only head either,the resulting compression ratio would be just a bit higher than I'd care to use for a "street" car running pump gas,but I feel the real downside would be cost to get a set up to snuff,which I feel will be more than a comparable set of 6x's or such (5C4,6X4) very likely,and if those 670's are in good enough shape to run "as is",I would expect their asking price to be enough to break your shoestring budget that you say your on...

Believe me when I say this,NOBODY here is on a tighter budget than I am,that I can assure all,but if you dont have cash,you damn well better have patience enough to find the good deals,and sense enough to know what corners can be cut,and which you just need to "bite the bullet" and pony up for,even if doing so means waiting till you can afford them,otherwise your more than free to waste your money throwing total junk together and having it last for just a ???? amount of time.

If your budget is that tight,you might just consider using that engine as a core and go find a generic rebuilt longblock at the local auto parts store and stuff that in there and drive it,at least that way you get some kind of warranty...

Then once it's past the warranty you can play around with it a bit as the budget affords.

Like I said,you should be scouring the performance parts for sale forum as a religion right now,plenty of deals there,may take a little time,but you should be able to save a lot of $$$$ there,dig around,go back a few pages and look for the stuff that has'nt sold,often when the stuff goes cold it can be had for a song.

A while back I picked up a set of new in the box TRW forged L2262F30 pistons here for like $100.00+ $15.00 shipping,I mean you cant beat that,no way, (many thanks again Tom & Amy!),often the only trick is you gotta be first on the "fresh kill"!!!

That or find the stuff that is'nt getting much interest and can be "bargained" down on price,it's all the art of the deal.

If you expect stuff to just fall into your lap,and for bargain basement prices,that just does'nt happen very often,saving money is hard work in my experience!

Good luck & sayonara.
Bret.

[BLUE67gto]

Yeah, I've been pretty patient on finding parts for this car up till know. It's just never been at the point that I had all the parts. shifter, disk brakes, windshield and all the glass steering column. It was pretty much a shell I do have a pretty tired 350 left over from the lemans I parted I could swing in the bay, to hold me off and do the 400, I don't know it's been 5 years in the making I should probably try and build it right. I need to use it to drive to work while I do rockers and floors on my truck this summer.

[sixt8bird]

Heres cheap for you with a profile close to the 2802. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpEgC6G12Sk

[HWYSTR455]

If you do end up buying pistons, you could get 060 overs, which would help with CR with the heads you have. You can also use a shim-type head gasket to help even a little further. At 60 over, 10 in the hole, 87 cc, 6cc reliefs, and a .032 head gasket, that's roughly 9.23 CR, totally acceptable with iron heads. I think you can even get .025 head gaskets, making for a 9.36CR. If your doing the machine work for new pistons, and go zero deck, gets you to 9.55...

Where are you located? I have a few sets of used TRW 30 overs, and some prep'd factory rods you can have for free. Think I have some 64s with stainless valves and new springs & guides that you can have too, though they've had some exhaust port grinding done (wouldn't be detrimental). They're like 89cc though, may not help.

You can call some of the machine shops in your area and see if they have a set of pistons that are used for a pontiac, sometimes they have a pile to pick from.

[HWYSTR455]

Now that I think about it, probably have a full gasket set too, leftovers from a number of gasket sets...