[RR67GTO]

Hello everyone I have a real problem I can't understand or get far with and I've spent a lot of hours looking and reading numbers and so on. IN a place I know with many kinds of old classin cars, even some decent trei five chevy cars sits a fwe older Pontiacs. Two of them are big cars, and in fact one is a 63 drop top with a 389 only good for parts. But, two other cars side by side. Were at once fully loaded with AM/FM. AC (one car) and both console shift. So, I look under the hods and see both have engiens that look decent. oil is dirty and normal grime but then I notice both have carbs I don't reconise. And, both still have the tags attached to the left front top screw or the four barrel carbs. I look at the carb tags and both are the same. The numbers are 3651s. Both have heads castings 9773345, and the intake on both are 9770274.

However, I can not for the life of me feel any transfer lug. The engines are in cars where hoods don't come up real well and I'm big. But, I get my hand around the back and can not feel the lug. Not, that I have felt many. The carbs are 421 applacation only carbs in Mc Carthy's book, and the heads can be the 389 or the 421s. BUt why, would both cars have the 421 carbs, looking like never been off the car, and yet transfer lug is not where it should be? Cars are 64 cars. If, in fact these are 421s, I want to buy the engines and try and get them to a person who neds them for a restoration making a few bucks of course. As far as block numbers, I looked and removed the paint with paint stripper, and no numbers at all. Not, even the last digites of the VIN code like most. I can't get far enough in back to read a number, and tried flash light only to see a mountian of hard sludge.

SO, I can just pull the carbs if they are something people need? Or, buy the complete engines hoping to have a pair of 421s. Or, forget them all together, and go pull the 1967 engine with 061 heads out of the old Wagon it sits in.

For those who know about strange Pontiac stuff, please let me know why the carbs are correct for 421 only, and why I can't feel a transfer lug? And don't say someone swapped the carbs, because ya know, they just look to at home thereand look like never been rebuilt to be swapped. Please email me as I'm only getting a fwe of my notices. thanks RR67gto@aol.com


Mike

[Hillard]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I think the whole transfer lug philosiphy is wrong. I believe I've seen them on some 389's and left off of some 421's. Dad's got a 1964 421 block sitting in the garage, I'll check it later. And Jegstek is bringing a 64 421 block over to me this weekend for me to check out, I'll take a look at it also and let you know.

[tom s]

transfer lugs were for NON 389-400 engines.I have seen 350s with the transfer lugs.It denotes the block is for diff machine work.I have never seen a 3 1/4 main block without the transfer lug.Also cant ever remember seeing or owning a 389-400 block WITH the lug.FYI,Tom

[mikediaz]

and- car vin numbers didnt appear on pontiac engines till later (69 i believe?) so that's why they aren't there.

Get some light and get the block code
http://www.yearone.com/updatedsingle...ontengid1.html
!!!!

Mike

[Hillard]

You are right Tom S. It is the 389's and 400's that do not have the lugs. I was thinking I had found a 389 with a lug but it was a 326. The 64 421 sitting in the garage does have the transfer lug. I stand corrected.

[John Folluo]

Mike, partial vins were stamped in the code area on the front in '63 (the pad had vin, engine ser# and engnie code). The practiced stopped some time after that and I THINK it started again in '68 but was vertical by the bottom of the timing cover. John

[63HO3x2Cat421]

John is right about the vin's and other numbers stamped on block in 63 and helped me identifying my car. BTW John thanks for the help did you notice i bought it

[John Folluo]

Yeah, I was just reading that tonight. Looks very solid, and the best part is that obviously you're happy with it!

[RR67GTO]

Well, thanks everyone for the help and information. Every none 389 or 400 block I have. 350s and 326s have the lug. I just wanted to see if maybe Pontiac has ever left them off by mistake other than those applacations that are known for not having them when they normally would have. At the very leaste, if I do not spend the fwe bucks I can get each engine for I'll pull the carbs and maybe the heads. Someone may want the factory correct carbs and the heads. On the other hand, theres nothing really wrong with having a couple of any older Pontiac engines around. I'm also going to search out some decent 301 and pull the HEI form it as they fit tight places, like my 68 Firebird has. Also seen some 67 Buick with a swooped front end that had hide away lights, and looked something like a Super Bird in that the front was low the the ground. A realli nice complete Rambler wagon, with running small V8, and a 63 Bonie convertabile in pretty ruff condition. Now, one more post about these big cars AM/FM Radios. Thanks friends, I'll let you know what I end up with. < Mike >

[Jerry H.]

Here is a close up pic of the transfer lug. Remember 421's were pretty rare in 64. It was still an option even on the 2+2. 65 and 66 2+2's had the 421 standard, but in 64 it was still an option.

[RR67GTO]

Thanks again friends. But now, I have to continue to search the engines more. The photo of the transfer lug showed it to be much smaller than I would have thought. I have to reach around and feel the back of the engine area, so something is there that's raised up for sure, honest. I also wanted to know what the cast part of the rear of the block. That has a raised area as wel as a hole through it is called? I believe it's for lifting the engine out but not sure. Both of these engines have small mountians with what feels like about 0.5" holse in them. The holes are also part of the castings because they are a bit rough. I'm trying my best to learn. I'm also thinking if I just buy them both for a real fair price and they are 389s, someone may have a need for one some time. Maybe when gas gets back down to fifty five cents a gallon. I have no problem with an engine Pontiac used so much even if it is a 389. It's still a Pontiac and a fine one at that. Again, thanks for all the information. My gut still tells me to not just pass these up.

[John Folluo]

RR67GTO, Look at this picture and compare it to the one posted earlier in the thread. Both sides of the rear of a 389 go up a little where the bellhousing bolt holes are. The transfer lug on a 421, as pictured earlier, is on the passenger side and is very distinctly different from the driver's side. It is a couple of inches higher, like a little mountain peak or spike.

[John Folluo]

forgot the picture!

[GRX]

Not all 421s had the "transfer lug" / pyramid.

[KEN CROCIE]

As I've said many times-you cant say "always" around a Pontiac!

[Steve Barcak]

Very few Pontiacs came with 421s or 428s. Seeing a loaded car doesn't usually mean it has the optional engine either. I have seen, and have in my yard, many full size cars that had more options than you can count and still have a standard engine, or a 4bbl upgrade if it wasn't a Bonne or GP (they were standard in those models). The 389s ran so good most people didn't feel a need to order one. POSI rears are the same way. I see/have lots of loaded to the hilts full size with open rear ends though it is more common to find a Posi in a wagon.
Another thing I have noted for over 35 years. If a full size was ordered with a 421 or 428 as an option, everyone I have seen ( lots ), had emblems indicating such on the fenders or rockers. They also had chrome valve covers too. If you see a '63-'69 full size and wonder about it having a 421 or 428, if you don't see emblems on the side, or at least holes were the emblems were, it is very unlikely it does. The possibility that someone swapped in a 421 or 428 into a 389/400 full size is even less likely. The exception here is the '69 bonney as it had a small valve, 2 bolt , 4bbl 428 standard and I think they made over 100,000 of them that year.
Here is a question for you...name the few Pontiac models that had the 428 engines as standard equipment.

Steve Barcak www.pontiacheaven.org

[GRX]

Originally Posted by KEN CROCIE

As I've said many times-you cant say "always" around a Pontiac!

That is so true. Nothing can be written in stone.

Recently I came across a disassembled Pontiac short block. "XH" code stamped on the front. Every single source I could find told me it was a 400. But that is clearly not the case since it has the larger mains, the second lug on the back, and the main webbing cast for the 4-bolt mains. Not to mention the 428 casting number. It is an early one before they started casting the displacement on the side. "GME" casting which I've been told are very early release. Best of all, it has the Arma Steel crank.

Many people looking for a 428 would have looked at the letter code on the front and moved on.

Originally Posted by Steve Barcak

>>>>>

Here is a question for you...name the few Pontiac models that had the 428 engines as standard equipment.

Steve Barcak www.pontiacheaven.org

The '68 Catalina perhaps? That is where this 428 came from supposedly. Guy said the car had 428 all over it.

[mrrat1]

67 2+2, 69 GP SJ.....Dave K.

[Steve Barcak]

Yes, these are correct answers. In '67 only the 2+2 had the 428 as standard equipment. The 428 wasn't standard in anything in '68 and in '69 it was standard in all Bonnevilles ( 2 bolt, small heads, painted valvecovers, 4 bbl ) and the SJ GPs.

Steve Barcak www.pontiacheaven.org