[steve v]

Where are you located? I wouldn't mind looking at it.

[don'tJUDGEme]

Originally Posted by steve v

Where are you located? I wouldn't mind looking at it.

I'm in California's central valley. Half way between Fresno and Sacramento. You can email me.....gilbert@kpcomponents.com . The numbers on the frame are kicked out of the computer. I was told by the CHP friend of mine that ran them for me that they stay in if the # is stolen but get kicked out between the 5th and 6th year if it is clean but inactive. I would still like to get rid of it, but I'm into it for a good bit of cash and I would rather drive it then loose money.

[turbo69bird]

This wholeThing is rediculous It's not like somebody is making a yugo into a GTO. the parts are all stamped by the same dies. as long as the correct parts are used it may be more original to use a rust free non cut body of a lemans to build a gto than it would to weld in aftermarket quarters and floorpans of incorrect metal strength and thickness. Some aftermarket panels are even HSS. This end result is further from the "real thing" Than rebodiing with a rust free, 100% original, made by GM, lemans body. Why shouldn't it be done?

You guy's need to get some other hobbies!!

Why sould we lose the RA pontiacs that have rusted out forever and keep a bunch of 6 poppers around for our kids to see and say pontiacs suck!!

People are buying brand new 69 camaro bodies and swapping thier tags on them all the time. If GM was produceing whole bodies for restoration purposes you wouldn't use one. Yeah right!!

[Pod]

Those of us with INTEGRITY wouldn't!

[Jack Ferris]

Originally Posted by turbo69bird

This wholeThing is rediculous It's not like somebody is making a yugo into a GTO. the parts are all stamped by the same dies. as long as the correct parts are used it may be more original to use a rust free non cut body of a lemans to build a gto than it would to weld in aftermarket quarters and floorpans of incorrect metal strength and thickness. Some aftermarket panels are even HSS. This end result is further from the "real thing" Than rebodiing with a rust free, 100% original, made by GM, lemans body. Why shouldn't it be done?

You guy's need to get some other hobbies!!

Why sould we lose the RA pontiacs that have rusted out forever and keep a bunch of 6 poppers around for our kids to see and say pontiacs suck!!

People are buying brand new 69 camaro bodies and swapping thier tags on them all the time. If GM was produceing whole bodies for restoration purposes you wouldn't use one. Yeah right!!

AGREED

[Newbomb Turk]

Rebody in the making.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1972-...QQcmdZViewItem

[md1twal3]

WOW! That baby is rough!!!!!

[1969Judge]

Md1, I think you are being too hard on that car! All it needs is a new owner willing to give it a little TLC and it will probably clean right up

[kaysersuzuki]

a little bondo here and rivet there and a few million spot welds and wow a transam

[Tom Vaught]

Quote:

"Also, didn't someone recently determine that in the eyes of the law, theframe numbers are what mattered most."

I have NEVER heard that one, before.

Frames have been swapped for years by body shops when there was frame damage. Rarely did they ever cut out the old frame number ot restamp the number in the new frame. My uncle had a series of GM Dealerships (including Pontiac) and I never saw it happen.

The frame number was just one additional way for a Police Officer to verify if the car was a legit car. The trans had a number (same as VIN) on it. There are other locations too.

I had to swap the frame out on my 64 convertible many years ago after it was hit twice in the rear. Pizza truck and a Corvette) Does that now make my car an illegal car and therefore not a GTO. You tell me. Most would say, don't worry about it. I asked several cops and they said no big deal.

Tom V.

[dancolkate]

Quote:
"Talking about E-bay and Vin tags I seen one where the guy was selling a matching #'s motor and trans to go with the vin tags and title to a 69 GTO".

Think about how much emphasis we all put on "numbers matching vehicles".

IMHO, if the complete original VIN matched drivetrain (engine/trans/rear) were used along with a chopped VIN, AND the rebody was done to very correct spec's (including color, interior and all options), you'd have enough of the original car to be OK.

Wouldn't this be better than having another GTO gone forever?

With that said, as a BUYER, I'd like to know what had been done to the car so I can make an educated decision to buy or not.

And as a seller, I'd want to inform a potential buyer.

[Formulabruce]

Originally Posted by dancolkate

Quote:
"Talking about E-bay and Vin tags I seen one where the guy was selling a matching #'s motor and trans to go with the vin tags and title to a 69 GTO".

Think about how much emphasis we all put on "numbers matching vehicles".

IMHO, if the complete original VIN matched drivetrain (engine/trans/rear) were used along with a chopped VIN, AND the rebody was done to very correct spec's (including color, interior and all options), you'd have enough of the original car to be OK.

Wouldn't this be better than having another GTO gone forever?

With that said, as a BUYER, I'd like to know what had been done to the car so I can make an educated decision to buy or not.

And as a seller, I'd want to inform a potential buyer.

Now thats the most reasonable post on this subject I have seen,

[racerboy]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

I asked several cops and they said no big deal.

Tom V.

Cops aren't lawyers. I'm not saying that the situation you spoke of is unlawful in yuor state (or any state) but most cops would probably tell you "no big deal" because there is a lack of probable cause for them to dig any deeper or to issue a summons. If you were going to sell a car with varying VINs, I would contact the Dept. of Consumer Fraud to get a more definitive/authoritative answer.

Frank

[455_PWR]

I have a question, what if you have a 66 gto that is totally rusted and unsavable, and you have a similar optioned lemans or tempest and you swap vins, hoods, motors, trans, rear end, emblems, dash, and the rear taillight area. Isn't that just as good as buying all repo parts and welding a car shell from the ground up? (except that it ruins a good tempest or lemans and it's much cheaper) I mean I know there are body tags and all of that, but if those are rusted out you wouldn't have them anyway right?

[pontiac locator]

ok, I have read and reread this forum, and I cant believe what Im reading, there are 2 sides, obviously, and I agree with parts of both of them.....I have to say that if the donor car and the "restored" car are not stolen no harm no foul. BUT, I also agree the title should reflect such so the buyers down the road are aware. I mean would all of you "non switching VIN" people, walk away from a 69 RA4 Judge that was rusted, I know depends on the $$$. But what if you knew of, or had the "donor" body, are you telling me youd, instead call PY with your Visa in hand and say; Give me the floors, fenders, 1/4s, trunk lid, door skins, tail panel, bumpers, interior kit, dash pad, gauge panel, frt and rear valance, hood, scoops, RA pans, console, carpet, gas tank, etc, etc, etc. Or would you use what you have???? Yea I know, integrity, or is it all about $$$, $$$ spent on the car of your dreams is one thing, $$$$ spent to make $$$$ is another. Would you rather the RA 4 got crushed, so that yours is worth more, NOT me! I dont care who owns what car, I would much rather see the car resurrected! Cloned, rebodied, patched up original, what ever...... bottom line, is its worth only what the next person will pay for it.
Some of us are not lucky enough to find our "dream car" in a garage with no rust, original paint and low mileage for $500, some of us didnt grow up with silver spoons in our mouths and a daddy to buy us our rare muscle car. Those that fall into the aforementioned categories, are lucky and Im not one of them. I found my(close enough, I want a Judge but I settled for this 68 GTO convert) dream GTO in a NC salvage yard, and yes it needs everything, would I rebody it YES, why, you ask?????? $$$$$ I dont have $20k to throw at it for a restoration, not because Im trying to fake a lemans/tempest for profit, because I want a GTO convertible. So why not just drive the lemans and throw a gto hood, seats, etc, well heres why: I know, Ive seen it, your at the shows, you spy a beautiful GTO you walk up and admire it, then here comes "johnny Pontiac", "nope thats not a real one, wrong VIN". It doesnt matter that its a beautiful car, it all comes down to that VIN. Same scenario, but with a "rebody"........different result.
IMHO it doesnt matter if its patched together with new CHINESE sheet metal, NOS GM sheetmetal, original JUNKYARD sheetmetal, or rebodied, its a desirable car. Is one worth more than the other?????? who knows its only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. And if thats the case, my other GTO is very valuable, I have a $100,000.00 74 GTO, WHY???, because thats what its going to take to pry my fingers loose from the steering wheel........

[rzrektd]

Originally Posted by 455_PWR

I have a question, what if you have a 66 gto that is totally rusted and unsavable, and you have a similar optioned lemans or tempest and you swap vins, hoods, motors, trans, rear end, emblems, dash, and the rear taillight area. Isn't that just as good as buying all repo parts and welding a car shell from the ground up? (except that it ruins a good tempest or lemans and it's much cheaper) I mean I know there are body tags and all of that, but if those are rusted out you wouldn't have them anyway right?

It is not good at all. You are cutting up a perfectly good car (especially a pontiac) for no reason other than to have the GTO name because of the clout and significant value in the muscle car market. If you are wanting a car that looks like a GTO, I respect that. Put the GTO options on the Lemans/tempest keep the vins correct to the lemans to keep things honest or you can swap everything and hide it so that you can sell the hacked car at the same value as a real GTO. When I say hacked, I also call my REAL GTO a hacked car too. That was the fate of my car. It was rusted very bad. Vin tampering is illegal and unethical, panel replacement is the only option to a level headed person. You don't see me screaming murder because I can't capitalize from having bought a rust bucket GTO and it not be possible to put back to original to where I can see ultimate value.

[robert strohrigl]

thats exactly right if you sell for collection purposes only its legal

but like thats really going to happen lol

and i cant believe percy actually listed on this site as having title and tag setups for sale??? is he serious?

thats looking for trouble

i have 10 vin and title setups but would never actually put them on a board for sale?

thats insane

and its not just a few 100 bucks guys
they get 1000-2000 a setup

i've had the offers

my 2 cents

I have many 442 ,Cutlass and Gto parts so if you need anything else let me know?
Thanks for checking with me and God Bless, Bob..

MY TOYS

68 HURST/OLDS Demmer #196 OF 515

68/442 455/400/323's

68 Gto (auto w dualgate shifter)355's H-Top "PHS Documented"

68 GTO H-Top (4SPD )355's #'s phs documented matching (4 sale or trade)

68 gto (auto) "his and hers" 293's #'s matching 22k actual mile title highly optioned PHS Documented (For Sale or Trade)

66 NOVA POST 327 DH HEADS AUTO 411's

[rzrektd]

Originally Posted by pontiac locator

ok, I have read and reread this forum, and I cant believe what Im reading, there are 2 sides, obviously, and I agree with parts of both of them.....I have to say that if the donor car and the "restored" car are not stolen no harm no foul. BUT, I also agree the title should reflect such so the buyers down the road are aware.

If this were the case, you would not hear a peep out of me on the topic. I believe it is someone's right to do what they want to their car with legal boundaries and it is someone's right to buy what they want as long as they know what it is. It is unfortunate that only a fraction of the cars modified per subject are disclosed.

I mean would all of you "non switching VIN" people, walk away from a 69 RA4 Judge that was rusted, I know depends on the $$$. But what if you knew of, or had the "donor" body, are you telling me youd, instead call PY with your Visa in hand and say; Give me the floors, fenders, 1/4s, trunk lid, door skins, tail panel, bumpers, interior kit, dash pad, gauge panel, frt and rear valance, hood, scoops, RA pans, console, carpet, gas tank, etc, etc, etc. Or would you use what you have????

I would part it poor thing out, cut the tags out and destroy them, then sell what is left as scrap. I'd then take the money and put it into the donor car and drive for a beater. A car is a car to me. Weather it is one of 360 or 1 of 1,000,000. GTO or lemans. I'll drive like any other.

Yea I know, integrity, or is it all about $$$, $$$ spent on the car of your dreams is one thing, $$$$ spent to make $$$$ is another. Would you rather the RA 4 got crushed, so that yours is worth more, NOT me! I dont care who owns what car, I would much rather see the car resurrected! Cloned, rebodied, patched up original, what ever...... bottom line, is its worth only what the next person will pay for it.

Sorry you feel that an extremely rotted car is worth so much to you. I'd rather see a rotted car resurrected. It would only be a pieced together car should we do a vin swap. Just like a panel replacement job. Only difference is if one can pull off hidding the history (which in a vin swap is easy) you can pull in a retirement fund from the car.

Some of us are not lucky enough to find our "dream car" in a garage with no rust, original paint and low mileage for $500, some of us didnt grow up with silver spoons in our mouths and a daddy to buy us our rare muscle car.

Pretty insulting. My background is my father's dad died when he was 17. He supported his mother and sister since then. He busts his rear day in day out paying the bills. He couldn't even afford to buy me a bicycle for more than 50 dollars and couldn't help buy my first car. He also couldn't afford to put me through college. At his age of 55, he doesn't have much for retirement. He did make sure to teach me what is right and what is wrong and how to work for what you wand. This was more important to him than the values you have. I will tell you that for a married 25 year old that only has a partial college education, I have a substantial net worth. Why? Because I didn't complain about silver spoons and I worked for what I have. It is really easy if you apply yourself. Do you suggest that since you were not born with a silver spoon in your mouth, it is ok to cheat the game of life? I also want to add that I have been in love with a GTO since I was 13. 12 years later, I have not yet ridden in one. But I torchure myself with what I can afford (66 GTO rust bucket) and deal with it. I could go buy a nice 40K gem, but I value more important things than having a beautiful GTO and what others think about my car at a car show.

Those that fall into the aforementioned categories, are lucky and Im not one of them. I found my(close enough, I want a Judge but I settled for this 68 GTO convert) dream GTO in a NC salvage yard, and yes it needs everything, would I rebody it YES, why, you ask?????? $$$$$ I dont have $20k to throw at it for a restoration, not because Im trying to fake a lemans/tempest for profit, because I want a GTO convertible. So why not just drive the lemans and throw a gto hood, seats, etc, well heres why: I know, Ive seen it, your at the shows, you spy a beautiful GTO you walk up and admire it, then here comes "johnny Pontiac", "nope thats not a real one, wrong VIN". It doesnt matter that its a beautiful car, it all comes down to that VIN. Same scenario, but with a "rebody"........different result.

Why do you car what other people think of your car? If they are looking that close to a car, they are looking to scrutinize anyway. Unfortunately it makes some people feel intelligent. You can't control that. Just be rude back till they walk on. I will say if your a real pontiac'er you wouldn't care if the Lemans or GTO name is on that qtr. Not having the money to restore something isn't an excuse. If you don't have the money to restore something, perhaps you should find interest in something that fits your budget or do something to make a buget that works.

IMHO it doesnt matter if its patched together with new CHINESE sheet metal, NOS GM sheetmetal, original JUNKYARD sheetmetal, or rebodied, its a desirable car. Is one worth more than the other?????? who knows its only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. And if thats the case, my other GTO is very valuable, I have a $100,000.00 74 GTO, WHY???, because thats what its going to take to pry my fingers loose from the steering wheel........

Correct - A car is only worth what someone is willing pay for it. All information about the car must be known by the buyer prior to purchase. Does an all origional excellent condition GTO sell at the same price as a disclosed lemans swapped GTO? No. Price difference is about 15-20K. Thats pretty big in my book and is a primo motive to hide vin swapping.

[rzrektd]

Originally Posted by robert strohrigl

thats exactly right if you sell for collection purposes only its legal

but like thats really going to happen lol

and i cant believe percy actually listed on this site as having title and tag setups for sale??? is he serious?

thats looking for trouble

i have 10 vin and title setups but would never actually put them on a board for sale?

thats insane

and its not just a few 100 bucks guys
they get 1000-2000 a setup

i've had the offers

my 2 cents

I have many 442 ,Cutlass and Gto parts so if you need anything else let me know?
Thanks for checking with me and God Bless, Bob..

MY TOYS

68 HURST/OLDS Demmer #196 OF 515

68/442 455/400/323's

68 Gto (auto w dualgate shifter)355's H-Top "PHS Documented"

68 GTO H-Top (4SPD )355's #'s phs documented matching (4 sale or trade)

68 gto (auto) "his and hers" 293's #'s matching 22k actual mile title highly optioned PHS Documented (For Sale or Trade)

66 NOVA POST 327 DH HEADS AUTO 411's

You're a good man. It is unfortunate the cars didn't make it, but that is part of life in this hobby. We need donor cars some how. My car has become one. It just wasn't working out.

[dancolkate]

Quote: I would part it poor thing out, cut the tags out and destroy them, then sell what is left as scrap. I'd then take the money and put it into the donor car and drive for a beater. A car is a car to me. Weather it is one of 360 or 1 of 1,000,000. GTO or lemans. I'll drive like any other.

No offense intended but sorry, I don't buy this statement. It makes WAY WAY more sense to bring a 69 RAIV Convertible 4 speed back to life. One could argue that cars as significant as the one in my example SHOULD be re-bodied to protect their SIGNIFICANT importance in automotive history. I'll admit my example differs from the everyday swapping of VINS to sell an otherwise rust-bomb on EBAY just for profit.