[Robert C.]

It's not the size of the ship....it's the motion of the Ocean or in our case motion of slow air flow. A round port will not flow more then a rectangle port in most cases.

[Lloyd-TX]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Brian Baker:
"Factory" race teams used airfoils in place of a round tube. They helped a bit over just having a round tube. Restriction? Maybe, but there's still more port there than any other Pontiac head designed in that era (which was the reason why it was such a colossal flop with the 303, and not much better on a 400...428's were better equipped to use the port, but even still were "smallish"). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmmmmm . . .

Prolly work pretty well on a pump gas 535" street deal then, correct?

[Brian Baker]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lloyd-TX:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Brian Baker:
"Factory" race teams used airfoils in place of a round tube. They helped a bit over just having a round tube. Restriction? Maybe, but there's still more port there than any other Pontiac head designed in that era (which was the reason why it was such a colossal flop with the 303, and not much better on a 400...428's were better equipped to use the port, but even still were "smallish"). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmmmmm . . .

Prolly work pretty well on a pump gas 535" street deal then, correct? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure, until you choked it with a 750 (or 800 cfm at best) Q-JEt.

I love Q-Jets for street rides, but I don't think even the best one could keep up with the demands of that engine.

[J.C.you]

I voted that i would seriously look at buying a set.
I think it is great that Lynn is looking into a project for the heads rebirth. If he can get the numbers he wants and thinks it could be competitive in certain classes, more power to his undertaking.
For all the nay sayers. and keep running ur 066 cam and ur two barrel.

[mikeb]

I see it said over and over again that pontiac people won't buy stuff. Some have quoted examples of desirable parts that they have had for sale in the parts forum.

I think part of the problem is timing. When parts are generally readily available (such as the IA2 block) people can and will save up for one in an orderly fashion and will buy it when the cash is there (or will use a credit card). I believe that Bob has sold some blocks, and hopefully i'll be a customer sometime this year. It also seems like edelbrock and KRE are selling heads, and the intake/cam/header market seems alive and well also. So, money is being spent by the pontiac community.

Stuff in the parts forum tends to come and go rather quickly, and for a lot of us coming up with $1500 for a crank or $2500 for some heads immediately poses a challenge. A lot of the stuff in that forum requires cash on hand instead of being able to use a credit card. It's not that we don't want to buy the part, but rather more that financial timing plays a role in when we are able to buy it, and how we are able to pay for it.

I was very interested in that forged crank but alas I didn't have the cash saved up for it at the moment it was for sale (I just used up my latest batch of race car cash to buy a set of 335cfm edels, a ported warrior with a fogger, and a dominator).

Exotic parts will usually take longer to sell anyway because of the cost & the more limited market for them.

I believe that if crower gets out their new crank and if it turns out to be a nice piece then they will sell every one they make, even at $1500 (or whatever) a pop. It'll be readily available (ie: no 6-8 month lead time and needing to know someone at the crank company) and you can use a credit card to buy one.

I also have to think that as these new parts continue to make it to the track and pontiacs make their mark that people will take notice and may decide to build up a pontiac of their own. This will serve to increase the pontiac customer base over time.

It is an exciting time to be a pontiac owner.

[tom s]

I have 2 sets of V heads that I own and actually run on a engine.One is a set of 400 heads and one is a set of 303 heads.Both sets floed in the 305-306 range@700 lift out of the box.The 400s had the foils and the 303 had the tube.Nunzi said the foils help but We could not see it on the bench.FYI,Tom

[Robert C.]

No it's not a V.....a, it is a port.

[Steve Hoog]

MikeB

Well said.

[tom s]

Mendoza finally found my flo sheet.He starts at 300 to 800.The copy was hard to read so the 300 not clear.The Intake floed 257-300-330-350-365 from 400 to 800.The Exhaust was 155-189-207-225-235-240 from 300 to 800.The intake is 2.19 and the exhaust is 1.73.He believes there might be a little more but he thinks that is getting real close to the max for a 2.19 valve.He believes a 2.25 couuld support the 380 range.FYI,Tom

[thirdgen455]

Thanks Tom for the flow #'s, by the way your 69 is one of the most beautiful cars I have ever seen.

[Robert C.]

We had close to the same as Tom S. 370cfm on the high end. But shape and cc in the port are better then CFM. Too many people are hung up on CFM. Joe at MRE can explane it best, to get Hp out of a port. Maybe Joe D. could come in and help out on this one.

[NHRASuperStock455SD]

I appreciate all the discussion on this board Pros and Con. It makes for a healthy debate to further the possibilities for Pontiac racers.

Another way to look at the RA-V issue to see what has been successful.

In the Late 70's and 80's RA-V cylinder heads in OEM form were very competitive in Pro Stock.

Because the RA-V has a superior design to start.

What if we add 2005 casting and cylinder head technology to engines that were making almost 900HP in the 1970's? I think it will be killer.

Remember the RA-V heads were the only OEM heads that outflowed Chrysler Hemi heads. The valve angles are great! They just made them too big for small motors! They were even too big for 400 cu in motors.

Our RA-V heads flowed 378cfm and were never on a flow bench until last year. Just with valve seat technology I am sure we could get over 400cfm without touching the port. (Our SS heads are out to 58 degree seat angles for flow during high piston speed)

RA-V heads have the cylinder head flow, and the cross sectional area of port design that will get us over 500 cubic inches that will be tough in a tradtional Pontiac head design.

Lynn

[Wareagle]

Lynn- I remember reading a article on the RAM AIR V outflowing the HEMI in a seventies magazine--they should have put this head on a beefed 455 for the 70 GTO and TRANS AM -retool the 63 SD rods etc.--this would have been a Chevy KILLER . I know this guy put a lot of brand X Race cars on the trailer with the RAM AIR V heads .

[bmpmdf]

I fully understand Lugnutts comments about parts and engines for sale. Even on cars. I also understand that not everyone can come up with alot of money very quick. But why should people in this hobby expect to buy a fresh engine that would cost them over $8500 to build for half that? The reason Pontiacs have had a hard time in the aftermarket is because chevy , mopar, and ford guys will pay for their parts and complete great quality engines nearly independent of what the cost is. How many Pontiac people if they had the money would spend the $15,000 + for a 1000hp engine? They would instead be tire kickers and complain that there is no reason that the custom block and head work should have been so expensive, blah blah blah. You wouldn't believe some of the emails I have gotten on the engine I currently have for sale. Makes me reconsider even being involved with Pontiac engines.

[russ467]

I personally believe that the majority of people on this particular forum isnt at the level of performace to need a set of 370cfm Wenzler II heads, forged crank or aftermarket block. Most of us probably dont race every single weekend and attend every pontiac drag event on whichever side of the states they live in. Its hard to justify $1200 dollars on a forged crank if you are only putting out 500hp.
Sure I can make a list that I need and/or want that include some of these parts that you guys are talking about. So yeah, I would like to see these parts available at a lower cost.
Personally my combo could benefit greatly having heads that flow big numbers, but the crank,block, cam, converter, and chassis would need an upgrade also to handle the new combo.
So there is more expense to buying a 1200 dollar crank and just throwing it in.
I am considered a tire kicker for now, but as I slowly upgrade, I will need the better stuff.

[jdw_poncho]

bmpmdf,
I know what your saying, I had a cheap "389" shortblock for sale for $500. I might have had the same response as you did in a e-mail or two. Or shall I say a lack of.......

[White Warrior]

To Lynn, From the flow #s I have seen and other input ,it seems like the exhaust flow for the RAV heads is a little weak. What can be done to help that. Would you go with a flat bottom exhaust port?

[GREATGTO]

I agree with bmp 100%. Most pontiac racers are low budget, hey i like a good deal as much as the next guy, but for those of us who complain about the cost to go fast maybe should take up a new hobby.I hardly ever bother talking to pontiac racers when I go to the track or even to car shows. The main reason for this is when I tell im building a pro street GTO with 565 ci of pontiac under the hood the first thing out of their mouth is they cant afford anything like that, then they treat me like a snobby rich guy and walk away.When I speak with any other racer they really get into it and appreciate something different.The main reason pontiac racers are so cheap at least in my mind is the fact pontiac's make good street engines due to their great low end torque, which makes it a good budget racers block for the guy that likes to burn off his tires on the weekend. I often joke with friends how I need to find someone to trade me a BB Chevelle for my GTO so I wont have to deal with all the pontiac cry babies all the time as far as cost.I cant afford everything I want either, but I sure wont be they guy complaining about the price of new products which in turn discourages future products from being available to pontiac racers. I've had several chevys, I love them as well, I have a few fords too, but I still prefer pontiac over anything. I must be crazy huh? I wonder is it worth it sometimes.

[tom s]

Dave,I will jump in and let Lynn add.The exhaust is a litte weak but in doing a new casting im sure the rollover could be taken out.Pontiac made a 3 valve developmental motor and if you see a pic of it,the exhaust came out straight like a BBC.There are so few actual RA V heads in use that a exhaust change would not be a big deal.Old time racers like Jerry Leak(spelling) and Rudi Diephus did some heads that had the exhaust port cut off and flanges welded.I bought a set that one head had been cut already.In all,I dont think it would be a big deal to alter the exhaust a little.Tom

[lugnutt]

Nothings better than winning a race. Then when you open your hood to see their expression when they see a pontiac motor under the hood.
That's what drives me, being a little differnt from the main stream. Usually being different cost a little more. But, well worth the exspense.
It could be a credit card comercial. "Whipping up on a big block chevy with your pontiac, PRICLESS" lol
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I also have to think that as these new parts continue to make it to the track and pontiacs make their mark that people will take notice and may decide to build up a pontiac of their own. This will serve to increase the pontiac customer base over time. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not only that, but the more made the more used parts will surface and make it alot more affordable for the run of the mill guys.