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#21
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The 350HO build is essentially what most 350 builds end up being. Time and money are certainly a factor when doing any specific restoration/build, but if I had a choice between a "real" 350HO car and a car with a 400, all else being equal... i'm going for the 350HO. They are somewhat rare and just cool. Now in that same thought I would not spend a lot more money on a 350HO. I would simply be drawn to it... and prefer it to a vanilla 400. How much more might I spend, all else being equal and without looking up real value, a couple grand maybe. It just seems like in the Firebird world people care more about big engines than low numbers models. Obviously 69TA excluded, and some early gen 2s. You just don't see Firebird guys looking up how many were midnight green with an auto and AC and saying "its one of only 250" blah blah.
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#22
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Last edited by thews; 08-28-2020 at 08:14 PM. |
#23
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The 69 and 70 D port "RAIII" heads are the same 72cc D port heads. #62, #48, #12 and #13 are the exact same head. Outside of the stamped numbers, they are all put on 350HP engines. Does anyone disagree that those 4 head numbers are different in any way? Last edited by thews; 08-28-2020 at 08:34 PM. |
#24
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Some very late 69 and all 1970 350 birds wore #11 heads. Slightly larger chambers than the 1969 #47. Too bad really. 350s non HO, started with 1968 #17 heads. Which was a great flowing head which cc’d generally below 80. The 69’ brought the #47. Lucky to get under 80cc. The #11 heads were all Well over 80. And the 350 which could have lived up to its potential began the slide into vanilla.
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#25
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Swing an a miss. Comes back as standard 350 2 barrel auto console rally 2s remote mirror delux wheel. Nothing special. I’ll post phs Monday. Too hard from phone. Thanks for your input fellas.
Pm for parts I think I going to let it go. If it sits here it’s going to be another race car and I already have 2
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1969 carousel red firebird 455, richmond 5 speed 1964 540 gto 1971 lemans sport convertible 1972 Maverick under slow construction |
#26
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Nothing special? That’s my car! Lol
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The Following User Says Thank You to hgiv For This Useful Post: | ||
#27
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Lol come get it
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1969 carousel red firebird 455, richmond 5 speed 1964 540 gto 1971 lemans sport convertible 1972 Maverick under slow construction |
#28
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No I mean that is the car I have!😜
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#29
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I’ll take some of this on for ‘69. There have been longer threads on this topic over the years with many anecdotal claims. It was a pit conversation at the Pure Stock Drags too. Finding true virgin heads for inspection is part of the reason for a lack of real evidence. On 400 platforms one common observation is that the heads were matched to the cam (generally aligning with the transmission). #62 heads were used with the 067 cam, and #48 heads were used with the 068 (also 744 In GTO) cam. The 067 generates greater cylinder pressure warranting less static compression to ward off pre-detonation). The 72cc chambers were more consistently reported on #48 heads used on these 400 applications. The #62 heads more often spec’ at closer to 75cc. The #48 head used on the 350HO spec’s closer to 66cc. They are used regardless of transmission selection on this platform. No one has definitely claimed evidence (other than chamber size) of a distinguishing mark to identify those heads from the other 400 platform #48 heads. This isn’t gospel but hope it helps.
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'69 R/A III Firebird Convertible 14.0s @ 100.8mph AMA/OEM/OER |
#30
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now. But I understand where your coming from. From the few pics it looks like a TON of good parts to help other projects along and your doing a good thing for the hobby. Good luck passing it along. BTW, when growing up the mailman delivered mail for several years with a 68 red Firebird 350 HO. I remember it like yesterday. Used to stand at the end of the driveway waiting for that beauty to rumble by with the mail. It was a manual trans to boot! |
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#31
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I had read here about the #48 for 350HO had smaller volume yet was indistinguishable from #48 for 400. I don't remember reading about the correlation between the other head volumes and cam. That is good insight. I'm baffled, however, why there isn't an "engineering" or "design" history that clarifies chamber volume for each head. If Pontiac was tailoring these heads by cc to match cams/applications I would expect the head designs would clearly specify intended chamber volume. Do the original design documents (ie drawings, specs) not contain the allowable range of chamber volume? Very odd to me they would manufacture two versions of #48 and not have a traceable mark or stamp to distinguish... Are the original engineering documents available anywhere or are they lost? |
#32
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#33
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Rocky Rotella addresses the issue of the markings on a 350 #48 head in his book (a great resource by the way!). There are some who believe there are examples of the head with an ‘X’ stamped on the exhaust port. No compelling proof exists to support its consistent use.
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'69 R/A III Firebird Convertible 14.0s @ 100.8mph AMA/OEM/OER |
#34
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And of course there is the fact that Pontiac heads are notorious for not being the “correct” volume. Most are at least 5cc bigger than advertised. 350 heads seem to particularly suffer from this. I don’t know about HO heads but good luck finding 1969 #47 that isn’t 80. It happens but MANY are.
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#35
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This will be in the classified section later today. availabe in various configurations all will need parts, time and money. If a board member wants this it will be 2300. I will put it on market place and see what happens and them maybe ebay after that. There ae some crazy people there, looking at THews posts. If it doesnt sell, I will keep it and dream of a RA1 tribute at somepoint. Thanks
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1969 carousel red firebird 455, richmond 5 speed 1964 540 gto 1971 lemans sport convertible 1972 Maverick under slow construction |
#36
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Where the No. 48 head is concerned, I had a chance to closely inspect a '69 350 HO that hadn't been apart since the day it was assembled at Pontiac.
During the rebuild, I was able to cc the heads myself in my garage and they measured exactly 66 cc. They'd been hot tanked and were completely bare (not yet machined), and I couldn't find a single marking on them anywhere that might suggest they were a variation of the standard No. 48. That doesn't suggest that Pontiac didn't produce a larger chambered No. 48 for 400 applications as we've heard they exist, but I can say with absolute certainty, the 48 heads I looked at were 66 cc. |
#37
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Anyone?
"Are the original engineering documents available anywhere or are they lost?" I'm just curious about how GM managed the design and release of head drawings to the foundry and/or manufacturing operations. |
#38
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Great thread guys, I have a 69 350 HO stick car survivor in the garage. I also picked up a 350 HO stick engine as a spare was kind of close by. Ill have to go out and look at it now. If I do have the spare engine rebuilt I will now cc it for my own curiosity. By the way I do drive the HO car a lot its a blast..
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69 Trans AM RAIII Auto 69 Firebird 350 HO 4spd Black survivor |
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#39
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That would be a hobby treasure trove if they could be found and collated into a binder. Maybe they’re on Oak Island? 😄
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'69 R/A III Firebird Convertible 14.0s @ 100.8mph AMA/OEM/OER |
The Following User Says Thank You to rdl For This Useful Post: | ||
#40
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One interesting tidbit about the 69 350HO is that there isn't any distinguishing marks externally to tell the world it's a 350HO. The 67 and 68 had stripes, but not the 69. It was designed as a sleeper. The 350HO engine I have is a stick with #48 heads. It came with the date codes all matching and even the original carb. I'll pull it out of storage soon and cc the heads. This engine came from Canada and has a Chevy stamp along with the Pontiac stamp. Maybe the 66cc head was a Canada thing? |
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