FAQ |
Members List |
Social Groups |
Calendar |
Search |
Today's Posts |
#41
|
|||
|
|||
Dick thanks for your input! I love your car... Deb flipped when she saw pics...
We envy your empty nest situation... Ours was almost empty 12 years ago... got carried away with increased freedom lol ! Not too bad with just one around... We'll be lucky to have an empty nest by time I'm 70, at earliest I'll be 66. With 6 kids and already6 grandkids we wont likely get lonely ever. Doing this stuff takes longer than when I was younger... I put the credit cards in lock down a long time ago!!! I aint doin that again! Glad I have skills I dont have to pay someone else for... I'd have to take up some mundane hobby. |
#42
|
||||
|
||||
I'm glad you guys are doing this thread. I still have to tackle my trunk located radiator and make sure it flows and cools since "cool" days in Phoenix AZ are few and far between. So far I'm going with a 55 GPM electric single outlet electric remote pump located aback t the radiator outlet. -16 (7/8ths) to and from the. Not too sure if it will work or not. I'm concerned whether that pump will move enough coolant (water) all the way up and back with enough power to maintain flow and any pressure. I'm thinking about a helper pump up front for a return. I've also cut the top off of an old front cover thinking to use that with a Mezeier type electric back at the radiator and the remote I already have to use for the return. I do not have the capability of a factory pump on the front of the motor since I am using a Hilborn cam driven fuel pump on a MOON front cover. At least for now.
There are belt driven Hilborn pump units that I could mount off of my front engine plate and I could install the factory type front cover and use a regular belt driven or an aftermarket electric pump in there. I'm also committed to making the trunk mount radiator work. No place left in the front for a radiator. It's probably shoot self in foot time but I want to make it work. Anywho, still working out that system. Mark L
__________________
My Gasser '63 Catalina build. Oh sorry, it's a Street freak. Either way it's a fun build. |
#43
|
||||
|
||||
Some Thoughts...
Quote:
I'm at work at the moment so I'll just make a couple of comments and get back to you later. First off I'll say that a -16 AN Line feeding a 55 GPM Pump is WAAAYYYY too small period. A -24 AN Line or a 1.300" I.D. Hose fitting is what that pump needs. Never starve the inlet side of a pump. I'm sure that there are those that say you can get away with it, but in fact they are wrong. Then there is the issue of the outlet side of that particular pump. What I WOULD NOT do is run one single large line all the way to the front of the vehicle. Two -16 AN lines is what I would run. Engine Feed/Supply Lines: Two -16 AN Lines = One 1.1879393" Orifice (Approx. 1-3/16") Definitiely Mount the Pump Behind the Radiator. Now the Return Lines from the Engine Outlet to the Radiator Inlet. If there is Room, I'd probably run a Single -20 AN Line. Engine Outlet/Radiator Inlet Line: One -20 AN Line = One 1.08" Orifice. (Approx. 1-5/64") Then here's what I'd do.... With the System Operating and a Pressure Gauge Mounted in the Engine's Internal Cooling System, I'd Monitor the System Pressure in the Engine. NOTE: Where you mount the gauge will depend on how you design your cooling system. What I don't care about is the pressure in the lines leading to the engine or the line coming back from the engine. What I want to know is if the Return Line is too big for the system to create sufficient pressure inside the ENGINE'S coolant passages. If it were determined that the return line was TOO large, then I'd create a restrictor and installl it in the return line. Next... Monitor that "Internal Engine Cooling System Pressure" during a Run down the track. If it maintains a good steady pressure then we're done. If it doesn't then here's why.. The "COLUMN" of Coolant in the Two -16 AN Feed Lines have MASS/WEIGHT. Under Acceleration the Water Pump has to Overcome this Mass which Creates Additional Pressure in those Lines and Requires the Water Pump to Work Harder. Whenever the Water Pump Works Harder, it SLOWS down somewhat. If it Slows down tooo much, we'll loose internal system pressure. If that occurred, then and only then, would I say that you need a Booster Pump... Be sure to supply that Water Pump with an Excellent Electrical Supply. (High Amperage Rating Relay, Large Gauge Wire + & -, etc.) Larry S.
__________________
---------- http://www.pas4performance.com Proud to Say, "Made in the USA" ---------- |
#44
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
__________________
www.hobracing.com |
#45
|
||||
|
||||
Larry. Thank you for your thoughts. Just a couple of notes. The remote elec. pump I have is rated at 50 GPM not 55 as I mistakenly listed. Plus it is not a Mezeier twin exit remote. The pump itself has a 1 inch NPT inlet and I have a I inch NPT inlet fitting that expands out to 1.5 for the radiator hose that feeds the pump fitting. The fitting is not a full 1 inch inside but just short, probably about 15/16ths. The pump also has only one single outlet, and it is again a 1 inch NPT opening. And again the outlet fitting is the same inside diameter as the inlet fitting (15/16ths?) with a -16 bung on it. I have enough -16 lines to run two from the pump to the motor but I'm sure the remote pumps single outlet will make that useless. My thought is to step up to -20 or even -23 out of the pump to the motor. Then use two -16 as returns back to the radiator. With possible restrictors/ball valves in the -16 lines to regulate the pressure. I took a Pontiac stock front cover and cut off the top water pump section. I'm thinking of getting a 55 GPM Mezeier Pontiac pump and installing that all in the rear. It would have a 1.5 inlet, feeding the Mezeier 55 GPM pump, twin outlets that I could weld -16 bungs on and run twin -16 lines to the motor. Then run a -20 all the way back.
Mark
__________________
My Gasser '63 Catalina build. Oh sorry, it's a Street freak. Either way it's a fun build. |
#46
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
I wanted to add that we sometimes take a sheet of 1" thick Lexan and drill the head bolt attaching holes in the Plate (made from the sheet). We also drill and attach thin stainless water nipples with twice the area of any given water hole in the block on the plate. We bolt down the plate with an "o-ring" receiver groove around each water hole for sealing. We attach a matching hose to each water nipple and then run the hoses to a Lexan Collection Tank Grid that has 16 "tanks" (4 x 4 pattern 2 gallon volume per Grid 'tank") to collect and measure the water from a given hose in a given amount of time. The pump has a flow meter in line from it to the engine block feed location. So now we know the total flow in a given time and the actual flow coming from each opening in the block in a given time. Very difficult to calculate a discharge Co-Efficient for a cast water hole or even a machined water hole as water erosion will constantly change the co-efficient over time. Our rig allows us to document the changes over time from the initial "New Build" before the dyno test and then throughout the testing cycle. It would be very easy to do a simple rig that would allow you to measure the actual flow for the given holes in a Pontiac Block deck. Food for thought. Again Great write-up on the Pontiac Larry. (:>) Tom V.
__________________
"Engineers do stuff for reasons" Tom Vaught Despite small distractions, there are those who will go Forward, Learning, Sharing Knowledge, Doing what they can to help others move forward. |
#47
|
||||
|
||||
Just a Thought...
Quote:
BTW, I returned your E-Mail this morning.... Have a good one, Larry S.
__________________
---------- http://www.pas4performance.com Proud to Say, "Made in the USA" ---------- |
#48
|
||||
|
||||
Give Me some more Information...
Quote:
Answer a few questions if you would so that I know we're on the same page. 1) What is the Brand of Pump that you're using? 2) Is this going to be "Reverse Flow" Cooling? 3) What Type of Cylinder Heads are you using and how many Coolant Outlets do they have? 4) What Type & Size of Radiator are You using and what Sizes are the Inlets and Outlets? Good Pictures Always Helps..... Larry S.
__________________
---------- http://www.pas4performance.com Proud to Say, "Made in the USA" ---------- |
#49
|
||||
|
||||
That's the Best Way..
Quote:
I Agree 100% that the only way to determine the flow through a Block's Deck Surface is to Physical Measure it with the Pump that is intended for the Application. Although, if the Calculated "Total Orifice" Area of the Block's Deck Surface Orifices is much greater than the Calculated "Total Orifice" Area of the Applicable Water Pump's Outlet, then it can be Concluded that the Block's Deck Surface Orifices will not pose a Restriction to the Water Pumps Outlet Volume. Larry S.
__________________
---------- http://www.pas4performance.com Proud to Say, "Made in the USA" ---------- |
#50
|
|||
|
|||
Have you installed thermocouples for all 8 cylinders with your external plumbing, in order to verify that you have in fact lowered/equalized temps? Routing coolant from the very back of each head directly to the water crossover makes my think that may be tricking a temp gage.
Thermocouples should be installed in the heads for each cylinder centered on the exhaust side and monitored simultaneously. Some data would prove your system. Last edited by Tiger Paw; 04-04-2014 at 10:07 AM. |
#51
|
||||
|
||||
"Under Intake" Coolant Manifold
Here's a few Images of the Prototype for the "Under Intake" Coolant Manifold that I had Mentioned Previously. This Manifold is Designed for Racing Applications Only. We're in the Process of Creating One for Street Car Applications.
This is as Small as I can make it. V8 Engines will require Two of these. They will fit under the Edelbrock Victor Intakes, the BOP Intake, the All Pontiac Intake, Both Wenzler Tunnel Rams and they may also fit under the Kauffman Northwind. They will come "Clear Coat" Anodized. We are still in the Process of Finalizing the Pricing and will Release that Information as soon as I can nail it down. Thanks, Larry S.
__________________
---------- http://www.pas4performance.com Proud to Say, "Made in the USA" ---------- |
#52
|
||||
|
||||
Here's what I have done...
Quote:
I've done this on "Siamesed Cylinder" Blocks and on "Non Siamesed Cylinder" Blocks. I've also done this with and without the additional coolant lines that I speak of. I've built, disassembled and inspected Racing Engines that are equipped with the coolant lines and I've built, disassembled and Inspected Racing Engines without the additional coolant lines. My opinion is that I'll never build another Racing Engine without paying strict attention to the cooling system again. NEVER.... Now, as I mentioned in the very first Post in this Thread, this is for Information Purposes Only. If you doubt what I've Posted then by ALL MEANS, Ignore it and move on. But, ask yourself a few questions first. First, why has EVERY Automotive Manufacturer Re-Engineered their Cooling Systems as the Engine's Efficiency and Output has Increased over the Last 20 Years? Secondly, why can Engines Tolerate Higher Compression Ratios than they ever could in the Past? Lastly, why are so many of the Latest "Racing Cylinder Heads" coming with an Elaborate "Cast Aluminum Cooling Manifold" that attaches below the Intake Runners and Allows Coolant to Flow out of the Cylinder Heads in Multiple Locations along the Deck Surface of the Cylinder Head? This is MY OPINION and Yours may vary...... Have a Good One, Larry S.
__________________
---------- http://www.pas4performance.com Proud to Say, "Made in the USA" ---------- |
#53
|
||||
|
||||
Forgive me if I missed this somewhere in this thread. I use -10 fittings at the rear of my High Port heads. Hoses that run under my intake to fittings that are tapped into the stock water crossover. Would you recommend installing allen head pipe plugs in the front of the heads (under the water crossover) with a hole drilled in them the same size as the rear -10 fittings to keep the water flow the same out of both ends? I think I'll tap holes in the center while things are apart so I can add your Y fittings when your have the available. This is a wet deck 535.
Thanks for the great cooling info in here. Todd
__________________
Todd Sedlmeier Who ever thought pinewood derby cars would lead to this! October 2004 HPP Shootout participate http://www.highperformancepontiac.co...out/index.html 86 Grand Prix 535 High Port 8.93 @ 153 65 GTO 433 High Port 12.04 @ 113 |
#54
|
||||
|
||||
jm455ho What is the measurement from the deck to the center of the tapped hole?
__________________
Todd Sedlmeier Who ever thought pinewood derby cars would lead to this! October 2004 HPP Shootout participate http://www.highperformancepontiac.co...out/index.html 86 Grand Prix 535 High Port 8.93 @ 153 65 GTO 433 High Port 12.04 @ 113 |
#55
|
||||
|
||||
I'll measure tonight and post info.
__________________
www.hobracing.com |
#56
|
||||
|
||||
Questions Answered....
Quote:
First off, Your Welcome for the Information and Thanks for Acknowledging the Effort. Yes, You can Install Plugs in the Front of the Cylinder Heads in the Threaded Passages under the Water Crossover. You'll have to Grind the Plug Down to Approximately Half of It's Original Thickness so that the Upper Edge is Flush with the Cylinder Head Surface. Each Plug that You Install would then need to have the Same Orifice Dimension as the Inside Diameter of the Rear -10 AN Fittings. BTW, When I Designed the Coolant Manifold that We Sell, I Designed It in such a way as to Seperate the Coolant Flow Exiting the Front of the Cylinder Heads from the Coolant Flow Exiting the Rear of the Cylinder Heads. It was also Designed so that the Coolant Flow from the Front of the Cylinder Heads could be Regulated and Adjusted by doing No More than switching out the Calibrated Disc/Orifice that sits under it in the Original Thermostat Location. I've Attcahed an Image of that Manifold and the Calibrated Disc. The "Under Intake" "Coolant Manifold" that we're currently in the Process of Producing will Work in Conjuction with this Manifold or with any other Coolant Manifold/Water Crossover of Your Choosing. I Posted the Images of that Manifold a Couple of Posts Back. WET DECK BLOCKS: Let Me clarify a few things about a Wet Deck Block that MUST be considered. If You've ever studied a "Stock Block" you would have found that the Coolant Passages are Sized and Located in such a way as to SUPPLY the Largest Volume of Coolant to the Center of the Cylinder Heads between #4 & #6 and #3 & #5 Cylinders. The Quantity of the Passages and their Sizing Favors the Frontal Area of the Cylinder Heads the Least. Therefore, IF your Block is Drilled this way then there will be Ample Coolant Flow to the Center of the Cylinder Heads, IF of Course, the Corresponding Passages in the Cylinder Head's Deck Surface are Properly Sized and Properly Located. I bring this up because you asked about the Orifice Sizing in the Front of Your Cylinder Heads and Its' Relationship to the Orifice Sizing at the Rear of Your Cylinder Heads. So let's say that Your Block's Deck Surface is Drilled much the same way that the Factory Drilled the Deck Surface. Then we now know that the greatest volume of coolant flow will be to the center of the heads. It'll then travel through the cylinder heads and out the front and rear outlet passages in a somewhat EQUAL manner. With EQUAL Orifice Sizing, of Course. You then, In My Opinion, could add Smaller -6 AN Outlet Fittings at the Center Area of the Cylinder Heads to Aid in Eliminating Steam Pockets and to Ensure that the Center of the Cylinder Heads would Receive the Coolest Coolant Possible. Here is why , whenever we discuss "Plumbing" a Cooling System it can get a Little Tricky. So many times I've found that an Aftermarket Block's Deck Surface has been Drilled in many different ways. Some of which makes No sense to me whatsoever. So let's say that the Deck's Orifice Sizing and Locations along the Block's Deck Surface is the Same or Symmetrical around each and every cylinder bore. Therefore, the Coolant Flow through the Deck Surface "WOULD NOT" be Biased Towards the Center of the Cylinder Heads but Instead Flow Equally to ALL Areas of the Cylinder Heads. In that Situation, I would Recommend a very Differnet Cooling System Plumbing Scheme. I would Recommend that the Largest Coolant Lines Exit the Center of the Cylinder Heads and that the Smallest Coolant Lines would be Located at the Front of the Cylinder Heads. That would Ensure that the Greatest Volume of Coolant, Regardless of How the Block's Deck Surface was Drilled, would be Forced to Flow through the Center of the Cylinder Heads. ALL of this Information is for "Standard Flow" "Wet Deck" Applications. Dry Decked Applcations are VERY DIFFERENT. Out of Time... I'll check back later.... Larry S.
__________________
---------- http://www.pas4performance.com Proud to Say, "Made in the USA" ---------- |
#57
|
||||
|
||||
2.85"
__________________
www.hobracing.com |
#58
|
|||
|
|||
Thanks Larry,
Correct sizing and orifice location is the other half of the issue and completes the picture. Good stuff. |
#59
|
||||
|
||||
Some interesting info here!! So I have a few questions, I'm going to a IA2 Block and it will be street driven also, what is the best way to cool this? Do U need a wet deck or can it be dry decked?If dry decked what do i need to do? If Wet decked what do i need to do? what size holes and locations do they need to be on the deck? I'm running KRE D Ports now, but who knows down the road. Thanks so much! Pictures always help for reference and for others that may use this information.
__________________
Darby 74 Grandville 2Dr 455 c.i 4550# 2011 1.60 60 ft,7.33@94.55-11.502@117.74 2017, 74 firebird -3600 lbs (all bests) 1.33 60 ft, 6.314@108.39 9.950@134.32 M/T 275/60 ET SS Drag Radial 2023,(Pontiac 505) 1.27 60 ft, 5.97@112.86, 9.48@139.31.... 275/60 Radial Pro's |
#60
|
|||
|
|||
There is some great information here... I am definitely interested in incorporating this into my new build with my E heads. Its an old post but a very good one that may benefit some new members... Just bumping it back from the grave! (Plus bumping it makes it easier to find in the future... LOL)
I sent LMSRACER a message on his site. I'm basically looking for a complete package that takes much of the thinking out of it. I'm to old to piece this stuff together... however not to old to bolt it up once all the pieces arrive. I have the option to chose the correct E-pump to complement what ever is determined best for overall cooling for a street driven 496 Turbo. If bumping this upset anyone... sorry.... (Not really) SPEED SAFE, NICK
__________________
"The grass is not greener on the other side, its just fertilized with different $h!t" |
Reply |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|