[The Champ]

Article in Motor Trend on the benefits (or lack there of) on running high ZDDP diesel motor oil in your car:

"Is Diesel Motor Oil the Right Choice for a Gasoline Engine?"

https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/di...765D12CFD72326

I never thought it was a good idea, but after reading this, I understand it's really a bad idea.

Zinc And Engine Speed

Why does this matter? Because the type of ZDDP in a diesel engine oil is not the same as the ZDDP in a gasoline engine oil. This is an important difference; diesel engines run at lower rpm than gasoline engines, so that difference in engine speed changes the way the ZDDP needs to activate to provide anti-wear protection. To get a little technical, diesel engine oils typically contain primary ZDDP and gasoline engine oils contain a blend of secondary and primary ZDDP. Just as a side note, racing oils just contain secondary ZDDP. Both types of ZDDP offer anti-wear protection, but the gasoline type of ZDDP provides more protection for higher-speed engines (think bigger valvesprings).

And it's not just the difference in the kind and amount of ZDDP, it's also the amount of anti-foaming agents. The needs are different between gas and diesel.

And beyond that, there is a difference in the amount of detergent and dispersants between gas and diesel.

It's a quick easy read with a lot of good info.

[Tom Vaught]

Always smile at these Hot Rod car type Magazine experts opinions.

15 years isn't chit in doing the job in oil research.

I was told 20 years ago by the BP Oil company (Oil EXPERT) who supported us at
Ford Research that the 15/40 oils would be just fine with my GTO when running a flat tappet camshaft. I haven't had one issue in 20 years of using the oil. 1350 PPM of Zinc.

So do I believe a Magazine Writer who writes for a car magazine or a expert with 30+
years of oil knowledge at the times whose company actually make oil products.

I will stick with what I have for the last 20 years. I bought the oil from a third party supplier Farm Fleet. Diesel engines love the stuff and the engines see very high crank loading.

Tom V.

We will not talk today about the fuels and lubricants classes I have taken in the past.

[The Champ]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Always smile at these Hot Rod car type Magazine experts opinions.

15 years isn't chit in doing the job in oil research.

I was told 20 years ago by the BP Oil company (Oil EXPERT) who supported us at
Ford Research that the 15/40 oils would be just fine with my GTO when running a flat tappet camshaft. I haven't had one issue in 20 years of using the oil. 1350 PPM of Zinc.

So do I believe a Magazine Writer who writes for a car magazine or a expert with 30+
years of oil knowledge at the times whose company actually make oil products.

I will stick with what I have for the last 20 years. I bought the oil from a third party supplier Farm Fleet. Diesel engines love the stuff and the engines see very high crank loading.

Tom V.

We will not talk today about the fuels and lubricants classes I have taken in the past.

Tom

Your career as an engineer for FoMoCo lasted many years. When you hit 15 years with them, were you knowledgeable in your field? Were you considered an expert in certain areas? I'm sure you were, and deserved the recognition.

As to advice given to you 20 years ago - has technology change in 20 years? Most assuredly yes as change is a constant.

The article was not written by a "magazine writer" as you claim, it was written by a "certified lubrication expert" for a magazine. Facts matter.

[Formulajones]

Lack of proper detergents is why I got away from desiel oils in a gas engine decades ago. Same reason I stopped using the Valvoline racing oils too.
Oils like that need more frequent change intervals. I sure hope guys using it are not trying to extend change intervals. Nevermind zddp, people forget about the rest of the additive package.

Speaking of which, how many here actually send in used oil samples for an oil analysis to actually know for sure what that oil is doing for you??

[Jay S]

I don’t know of any method better than sending the oil off for an oil analysis when your concerned about it doing it’s job.

We test oil when nessarry. Not every time. I think it is a good practice. Some of our equipment and vehicles have a gazzillion hours or miles on it, I know it is shot, and don’t an oil analysis to reaffirm that.

My concern with oils is always when new oil formulation gets changed to create a new issue. When Diesels oils started getting formulated for teir4 emissions equipment there started to be a lot of reformulations in oils used for Diesels. Finding a good mix of detergents and wear additive packages generally there seem to be trade offs. The oil analysis will tell you if you picked the right trade offs, and how long the oil change intervals are, plus if it is doing it’s job. Only problem is if you pick poorly on oil you may not make it to that oil change analysis with flat tappet stuff right now.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Jay S

I don’t know of any method better than sending the oil off for an oil analysis when your concerned about it doing it’s job.

We test oil when nessarry. Not every time. I think it is a good practice. Some of our equipment and vehicles have a gazzillion hours or miles on it, I know it is shot, and don’t an oil analysis to reaffirm that.

My concern with oils is always when new oil formulation gets changed to create a new issue. When Diesels oils started getting formulated for teir4 emissions equipment there started to be a lot of reformulations in oils used for Diesels. Finding a good mix of detergents and wear additive packages generally there seem to be trade offs. The oil analysis will tell you if you picked the right trade offs, and how long the oil change intervals are, plus if it is doing it’s job. Only problem is if you pick poorly on oil you may not make it to that oil change analysis with flat tappet stuff right now.

Yes oil formulations changing has been going on for a long time and is hard to keep up with. Filter quality has as well.

Your last sentence is what I ran into years ago using Valvoline race oil. I was doing the typical 3000 mile intervals that was always preached at the time, and when I learned about oil analysis to my surprise I also found out that oil wasn't doing the job at those intervals. Rather than find out what that interval was I decided to change up the oil program and find something that worked as intended and lasted a decent oil change interval without harm.

I suspect with frequent oil changes these oils would work okay but I just have too many cars for that type of regimen.

As you stated once you find an oil and filter that suits your needs and is doing it's job, there really is no need for oil analysis after that. I can only think of two reasons you'd want to. One, if you suspect a problem and want to narrow down the root cause. Two, you've changed your routine, or your oil or filter brands and need to make sure it's still doing as intended. Otherwise it's not a necessary process that you have to spend a bunch of money on.
On that note, I haven't done it in years simply because I found what is working for me and haven't changed my routine since, nor had any type of issue.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

Lack of proper detergents is why I got away from desiel oils in a gas engine decades ago. Same reason I stopped using the Valvoline racing oils too.
Oils like that need more frequent change intervals. I sure hope guys using it are not trying to extend change intervals. Nevermind zddp, people forget about the rest of the additive package.

Speaking of which, how many here actually send in used oil samples for an oil analysis to actually know for sure what that oil is doing for you??

I still have about 30 of the white "Oil Analysis" kits that we used to have shipped to the BP Engineers. I still keep bare Valve Guides in the containers today. Once a month all 6 engines oil was sampled and sent to BP for our durability engines.

Tom V.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by The Champ

Tom

Your career as an engineer for FoMoCo lasted many years. When you hit 15 years with them, were you knowledgeable in your field? Were you considered an expert in certain areas? I'm sure you were, and deserved the recognition.

As to advice given to you 20 years ago - has technology change in 20 years? Most assuredly yes as change is a constant.

The article was not written by a "magazine writer" as you claim, it was written by a "certified lubrication expert" for a magazine. Facts matter.

Good Question: I put in 7 years in Emissions and F.E. and by the 7th year I was representing the Company in ALL Emissions actual testing at the EPA in
Ann Arbor Michigan.

I put in 8 Years, after that, working for Truck Operations and was the "go to guy" for and Emissions & F.E. testing as related to Truck Vehicles. Both Track Testing and Dyno Cert Testing. I hired in as a Pay Grade 6 (most hired in as a Pay Grade 5 and by 15 years was the highest pay grade (8) that a normal Engineer achieves (without going to management) vs engineering.

So 15 years experience plus my Holley Experience, I was the "Go-To Guy.

Mind you 39 years is a long time to work for one company.

A Certified person just means they can sign off on some testing, It does not
mean that they are are an EXPERT in the subject. Most in a field have to be
"certified" to observe given testing as a Witness. Nothing more.

So #1 .... 15 years you can be considered to be an expert in a given field.

#2 Certified just means you can sign documents which I did for my company
when we tested at the EPA.

#3 As far as advice, we are talking about an engine that has not been sold in many years (Pontiac). I wanted a durable 455 engine for my 64 GTO.
The BP Oil Technical Specialist gave me the info for that engine and its parts.

#4 As TCSGTO mentioned Lake Speed Jr's educational background is in business and marketing...

My advisor at BP WAS an Certified Engineer, A Big 3 Engineering Representative working in Research, not writing magazine articles.

Hope this helps you out on the DIFFERENCE in the two occupations and education required. If I needed a article written I would probably listen to him.

Tom V.

[track73]

I worked at Chevron gas station when my last 2 years of college. I bought Chevron DELO for $8 dollars a case of 24. I changed oil and filter every 2 months on my 67 Catalina. I had that car for 12 years and you could eat off the inside of the valve cover.

[Shiny]

I read the article and found it interesting but less than definitive. Anytime I see something complex simplified to that level, I tend to be skeptical.

In the article, the conclusions about "primary vs secondary ZDDP" was an example of something I wasn't aware of. Being ignorant, I decided to dig one layer deeper on just that topic. As expected, I think the real answer is "it depends".. Here is an interesting discussion with a lot of insight into the reality of ZDDP types and tradeoffs with other additives:

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/th...y-zddp.295359/

It's not simple enough to make a broad sweep IMO.

[geeteeohguy]

Originally Posted by track73

I worked at Chevron gas station when my last 2 years of college. I bought Chevron DELO for $8 dollars a case of 24. I changed oil and filter every 2 months on my 67 Catalina. I had that car for 12 years and you could eat off the inside of the valve cover.

I've been running Rotella or Delo in my flat tappet cars since 2002. Many tens of thousands of miles. When I pulled the engine in my '67 GTO in 2011 after a decade of using Rotella to install a rear main seal and replace the core plugs, the inside of the engine looked like new. Bearings showed no visible wear. Engine had 80,000+ miles on it since I last rebuilt it. Ten years later, still uses no oil, leaks no oil, and runs great. Same with the '65 GTO, '61 Corvette, and '83 Toyota 4x4. Decades of use and tens of thousands of miles of trouble-free service and counting.

[P@blo]

Why do these topics always get steered towards the "bypass filtration" discussion? Can we just start one bypass filtration thread with the same 3-4 guys posting there instead of beating this dead horse forever? Same guys beating the same drum...

Yes you can catch a few flys this way but but it is really not on topic and kills good discussions. And I am still waiting to see a modern oil study, on a gasoline engine, under normal operating conditions proving the bypass system does what you guys are so quick to claim.

There is just to little ROI

[Formulajones]

I don't claim anything with it as I've never used it and I don't promote the system, but you can find oil analysis with by-pass filtration systems in place all over the internet if you really want to see how well they work. Many from various oil companies if you don't trust individual tests.
I'm sure Sirrotica would be glad to post some as I'm sure he has to be doing his own oil analysis. At least I would hope so for as much as he claims they work for him, because the only way to know for sure is an oil analysis.

I honestly have no use for the by-pass system though. Yeah it does work, but has no place in the classic car world as far as I'm concerned or anyone is concerned that I've done work for. It's an interesting subject that a lot of people haven't been made aware of, but not something you're going to sell to the millions of classic car owners.

I think as long as we are around and still driving these old cars, we'll have oil discussions. Oil is an ever changing industry and this stuff isn't getting any cheaper either.

[tjs72lemans]

Many of my hot rods I've owned for 40 years with flat tappet cams I've run Valvoline 10-40 and never an issue. My Fiat Spider, I ran Rotella diesel 15-40 oil, as that is what the Fiat guys push. My Pontiac I started with 10-40 Brad Penn and then switched to Driven 10-40, since that is what my engine builder suggested. I asked why the Driven oil stays so clean looking compared to my Valvoline? He said the Valvoline type oils keep contaminants suspended in oil, while Drive oil, the contaminants lay in the bottom of oil pan. I learn new things on oil here and other places I had no idea about. I'm no engineer.

[geeteeohguy]

Originally Posted by tjs72lemans

Many of my hot rods I've owned for 40 years with flat tappet cams I've run Valvoline 10-40 and never an issue. My Fiat Spider, I ran Rotella diesel 15-40 oil, as that is what the Fiat guys push. My Pontiac I started with 10-40 Brad Penn and then switched to Driven 10-40, since that is what my engine builder suggested. I asked why the Driven oil stays so clean looking compared to my Valvoline? He said the Valvoline type oils keep contaminants suspended in oil, while Drive oil, the contaminants lay in the bottom of oil pan. I learn new things on oil here and other places I had no idea about. I'm no engineer.

Detergent oils keep dirt and contaminants suspended in the oil, so that they get drained out of the engine with an oil change. Resulting in a clean, gum-free engine. Non-detergent oils of yesteryear don't, and the dirt and contaminants settle into nooks and crannies and the bottom of the pan. An oil drain leaves them there. Have serviced and worked on many, many engines that ran non-detergent oils back in the day, and they were always a gooey, encrusted mess internally. I seriously doubt that the new Driven oil is non-detergent, but I could be wrong. I would not run ANY non-detergent oil in an any engine I cared about. Brad is right about the by-pass filter, they flat-out work, but most don't want to bother plumbing one into the system for whatever reason.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by geeteeohguy

. Brad is right about the by-pass filter, they flat-out work, but most don't want to bother plumbing one into the system for whatever reason.

Yes, there is no arguing bypass filters work. I don't think anyone here has ever said otherwise. But the reason you're wondering why most don't bother plumbing them in are actually more simple. Being a classic car forum, the majority don't want or can't have that system hanging off the car. It's honestly just not something most can or are willing to do. Most of the restorations I do the customers would be appalled if I even suggested something like that.
Couple that with the fact that most don't drive these cars much more than a couple thousand miles a year at the most anyway, it's just not an absolute necessity.
The by-pass setup is a great system where they make the most sense.

Now if they made something very small and compact and very easy to hide so it's completely out of site, more classic car owners would jump on board. As far as I know there isn't such a system and probably never will be since they generally don't market these things for the classic car world.

On the other hand, if one were to do an oil analysis as I suggested earlier, you could find that optimum oil/filter package and change interval that works best and extend those oil changes to a safe interval and save some money that way, so you aren't changing the oil as frequently and unnecessarily.

That's exactly what I did years ago in an attempt to find a longer safe change interval as my car habit grew, because as mentioned above, it's really not practical to be under the car every 1000 miles changing oil. That's a lot of time and money spent, especially when you have multiple cars. An oil analysis will tell you when it's time, and which brands of oils or filters are working best. It's honestly the next best solution.

[Jay S]

Detergents tend to strip the zinc and Phos off metals. That is why most break in oils are non-detergent oil, and why racing Oils tend to have less detergent. Oil designed for Diesel’s are meant to run with older and newer equipment. The older equipment with mech. injection pumps does not like high detergent because it is hard on the injection pump. On the other side of that, zinc levels were lowered in Diesel oils a few years back when OEM’s started using EGR’s and cats. Higher zinc is not friendly for those. They found other additives the fill those gaps when the zinc levels were lowered. For a gas engine, more or less detergent isn’t necessarily a bad thing, depend on what you doing with your engine. If the oil claim’s “extended milage”, chance are it is really high in detergent. If it is a racing oil it is likely the opposite. It is hard to beat testing the oil to see if it is doing it job.

[Sirrotica]

For the "I could never hide a by pass filter", crowd, I just went out and measured mine. It's just about the size of a one gallon can of paint, not really, I lied......

It's 4 inches in diameter, and 5 1/2 inches tall, with 2, 1/4 inch I.D. lines going to, and from it. I can see why no one could possibly hide one........LOL

I have no idea of how big the opponents think one is, but that's the measurements I just took. In comparison an AC PF 24 is 3.77 inches in diameter, and 4.21 inches tall. To summarize, it's 1/4 inch larger in diameter, and an 1 1/4 inches longer than a stock Pontiac PF24 oil filter.

BTW, I do run one on my 05 GTO, so for the notion that you just have to have an 18 wheeler to run one, not so. I don't have to mount it in a trailer to haul it behind me either............... It's nestled below the master cylinder, between the inner fender, and the left exhaust manifold. If I wanted to hide it, it would be under the front bumper, but that would defeat the ease of changing the media from the top, and not having to raise the car up.

Adding up to 8 times the engine longevity is well worth the effort of a proper filter on anything plus I don't have to crawl under the car to change oil constantly either. I can safely run my oil for years, just putting in a new roll of TP in every year or two. Last time I priced a roll of TP, under a buck even after covid jacked the price of toilet tissue up. It saves me money, time, and I don't have waste oil sitting in gallon jugs to dispose of. Another bonus, virtually zero engine wear, compared to a conventional filter.

Since we quit drilling for oil here, the price of oil has doubled over what it was a few years ago. I buy very little oil for my vehicles that have a by pass oil filter on, and though I do own 3 diesel trucks, they only are dually's, no 18 wheelers in my stable....

The Franz by pass filter is also used as an auxiliary transmission filter by some people, and a diesel fuel filter to remove sub 10 micron particulate that will trash an injection pump in a flash. Generac now includes them in all their units currently, gas, propane, or diesel to help with engine longevity. If anything sits longer than a hobby car without constant running, it's probably an emergency genset.

One other thing is, moisture tends to accumulate in engines that get run infrequently, (hobby cars, gensets). The Frantz, because the media is cellulose, will absorb up to 6 ounces of water, and hold onto it until the oil reaches a high enough temperature to vaporize the moisture to steam, or the media is changed, and it gets tossed.


FRANTZ FILTER ON 396 CHEVY, I BELEIVE ITS A CHEVLLE



On racing, the early Baja 1000 VW based buggies were not able to finish races due to the fine dust ingested during the race because VW only used a mesh screen in the crankcase for filtering oil. Enter the use of Frantz by pass filters, and the engine longevity was increased so they could complete the race. Probably about the furthest use from an 18 wheel diesel you could come up with.

That probably ruins the theory that only OTR 18 wheel tractor trailer diesels can benefit from them.........

I really don't care one way or the other if anyone on this board uses a by pass filter, or not, but the facts about them is what seems to get distorted from reality. They may not be for everyone, and I'm perfectly fine with that. I only wish I had tried them back in the early 70s when I first saw one demonstrated to me. It would have saved me some engines, money, and time. As the Amish say, "Old too soon, smart too late."

[ZeGermanHam]

Thanks for posting. Being a thread on the topic of motor oil, I'm sure it will bring about a spirited discussion. I recently bought about 3 oil changes worth of Lucas Hot Rod & Classic w/ZDDP oil for my '66.

[PunchT37]

I could see crotch rocket oil vs...


But, a Pontiac v8?