[70RamAirIIITA]

To tell you the truth, I've been embarassed to post photos of my 70 TA project for fear of people ridiculing me, telling me to do a rebody or to sell it and get a better car.

Since I have my mind set on bringing my TA back to it's former glory and NOT doing a rebody, I'm looking for advice on how to tackle this repair in a methodical way. The tail section and lower valance are toast, as is the trunk pan. There is also areas on both sides of the trunk channel near the tail section where the metal has completely rotted away. The floor pans have some issues, and the left 1/4 looks like it's going to need to be replaced if not patched. The cowl will also need replacing as well.

Before doing anything else I need to take care of the rear section as I feel this is the worst and probably most difficult to repair and needs to be done before I can even get the car on a rotisserie. I have a very clean 70 Esprit parts car from which I'll be using the tail section from.

I'm thinking of drilling out the tail/valance panel first, then the trunk pan. Once the trunk pan and tail have been replaced from the sections on the parts car, I was thinking about cutting the sections of the trunk channel needed from the parts car and welding them where the rot is between the trunk and tail panel. Should the left 1/4 be taken out as well at this time or should it be removed after the tail section has been replaced? Any advice as how to approach and accomplish this repair will be greatly appreciated. Just trying to save a TA.........

Thanks in advance.

[punkey]

Hello,
As you can see here http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=545103 I'm alomost at the same point as you. I'm pretty much just an observer but maybe my progress pics will help. He did cut the left bottom quarter section off on my car. It needs replaced anyway and the trunk is one piece so he thought it would be easier this way. He first started with taking the outer tail panel section off. Now he's working on getting the trunk pan out. We'll be working on it again Sunday so I'll try to post the new pics Monday night. If you have any questions let me know & I'll ask my boyfriend/mechanic

[niceta]

You definitely have your work cut out but anything can be done I believe. I am not a body man but I have a TA project on the go with similar problems, granted not quite as serious as yours.
I have been told by several people to get the body down to bare metal before doing any cutting so you know exactly what you are dealing with. I had one guy (ex-body man) I know look at mine and tell me it was shot and that I should find another car and just cut the car from the doors back and replace it all. After I settled down a little and regained my composure (almost snapped on the guy LOL), I got several other opinions and decided that I was in no hurry to get the car on the road and that I wanted to learn. Shortly thereafter I knocked all the paint off, Gutted the interior and pulled the hood fenders and wiring. It turned out to be not as bad as the body guy thought.

I now have a better picture of what I need to do. I have found a couple other issues that will require attention but things are so much clearer when you have a clean slate to work with. You are lucky to have a doner car.

From what I have read you should have the car supported on it's suspension before cutting and only do one panel at a time. You can also weld support braces in to help heep the body aligned while cutting parts out. Sorry I can't be more help but I am sure there is someone here that can offer more technical advice. How are the frame rails, inner rear fender and trunk drop offs?. Your rear window channel is also more than likely rusted as this is a famous spot for rust. Again no prob if you have a doner.

If you decide to cut your quarters out and replace them I would buy some of your leftovers as I need a right upper quarter. Anyway sorry for the long post good luck with the restore.

[70RamAirIIITA]

Hey Punkey & NiceTA,

Thanks for the advice - and here I thought I was the only one with these issues. It's nice (?) to know there are others with the same kind of problems, maybe we can start our own support group - The Body Rot Kids! I'm sure our cars would've been taken to the scrap yard years ago and would not have been looked at twice as being rebuildable. People telling us to do a rebody or sell the car and look for a more solid platform just don't get it - it takes a lot of determination to deal with issues like these, but I feel the car deserves a second chance - regardless of how it was treated before I got it. You know, I fell sorry for the car and what previous owners have done to it.

Like you, I'm in no hurry and I want to do as much as I can on my own without having to farm the car out to a body shop where it will cost thousands of dollars to repair. I need to finish pulling the dash out and the interior will be stripped, then I was thinking about taking the body to get soda blasted. I know taking it down to the metal will show all of the flaws but I didn't know if I wanted to do that before or after I took on the rear repair job.

There's a ton of bondo on the 1/4's and rear spoiler; someone had the brainstorm of molding rear wheel flairs along with the normal front flairs and molded the rear spoiler as well. I won't go into telling you about the interior where they used black metallic vinyl and diamond tucked the seats and door panels. The interior was originally bright blue and they painted everything metallic black except for the dash bezel which they painted gold. I'll post photos of the nastiness in the project section soon. The doors are toast but should I keep them on while doing the repair work? I've read that if you take the doors off while doing panel replacement that things can get out of alignment.

Maybe someone who's done a similar repair and has already been through it all will chime in with more advicel. I also want to apologize for the large pictures, I just got a Photobucket account and I'm still trying to learn how to post photos.

[Rack776]

Hey at least your car is a trans am!
My car is just a base model 75 Firebird 350 2bbl and it looks almost as bad.

I found a rust free 75 455 T/A while looking for quarters for it, so now I have 2 projects!

Why fix the base firebird? It was my first car I drove in High School -
Lots of guys can build a car to look loke their first car but I still have my piece of junk!

Your not alone fellow Rust Warrior!
Good luck with the project- Jason

[md1twal3]

I think Punkey has the right idea...replace the area that is going to restore structural integrity first, a.k.a the trunk. I have a rust project that I am sure needs everything that your's does and then some, and I plan to take the same approach as Punkey and V8TV.

This thread has some great links to videos that show you a few ways to get it done:
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=543716

Good luck, and don't give up, it can be saved! Often times, things do look worse than they are. Once you get the entire tail panel out of the car and have the donor clamped in, it won't look nearly as bad...and that is only 1 panel.

[70RamAirIIITA]

Wow, those video clips are a great help! I haven't been able to find much information on repairs like this. I'm really glad I decided to post my question after all; it seems like there are a lot of us in the same situation; we have the rust buckets but don't want to admit to it to the PY community for fear of ridicule.

Keep those cards, letters and v-v-videos coming!

Rust Bucket 'Birds of America - Unite!! There is hope for us!

[niceta]

heres some more to look at. Hope these help.
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2217852/1
http://s126.photobucket.com/albums/p...rent=51TTA.jpg
One of the members here and I think he replaced a few panels, nice work: http://www.hbci.com/~chriss/
http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/t...l_2/index.html

I know I have more just have to dig them out

[70RamAirIIITA]

Hey NiceTA, thank you so much for posting the videos, they are awesome! They show exactly what I need to do!

I'll post updates as I move forward so others needing to do the same type of repair can have even more reference information that's specific to 2nd-gen 'Birds.

Thank you everyone for the information and words of encouragement - you guys are great!

[Greg Reid]

I've got news for you....Repairing rust buckets that any sane person would scrap is standard operating procedure around here....or any other old car forum really.
That's just what we do!

[Pontiac_Defender]

Here's the Impala link...you will be totally amazed at the work this guy has done!

http://www.impalas.net/forums/showthread.php?t=686

As far as welders go I have heard nothing good about one from Harbor Freight

Lincoln's , Miller's, and Hobart's seem to be the flavor

[niceta]

I too have been watching your patch repairs Greg. Good work, you make it look easy.
As for welders, I bought a Hobart 180. It is 220V wire feed gas Mig. The reason I went this route is I thought I may want to weld bigger stuff in the future (220 VS 110) and Hobart was bought out by Miller so alot of the parts are the same. Nothing wrong with smaller 110V Migs though as they are a little more affordable, do not require larger breaker (can be plugged into wall) and can still weld body panels. I am of the thought that spend a little extra on good quality tools and they will work better and last longer. Shop around and step up to gas mig if possible as the weld wuality is night and day.

The esprit looks pretty good to cut up, mabe you should look around for anouther tail panel and restore the esprit down the road. Just a thought. If you need a lot of interior and hard to find stuff though it may work for doner and save you $$.

As I said before you should get a better idea of what the TA requires by taking it down to metal.

[70RamAirIIITA]

Thanks for the welder advice; I'll do some looking around and see if I can pick up a nice used Lincoln or Hobart/Miller. I know all of Harbor Freight's tools come from China and are lacking in the quality department.

Believe me, I've been looking for either a tail section or another parts car; no luck as of yet. The thing is, around here you can find cars in decent shape that you don't want to cut into. I found someone selling a 73 Formula for $1,000 on Craig's List that had some body damage. By the time I contacted the guy it was gone. But what do you do, hack into a Formula for the sake of saving a TA? Then on the other side of it you have people trying to sell base model 'Birds for $3,500 and up......

Maybe by the time I get the TA stripped and taken down to metal I'll have found either a tail section or a donor base 'Bird for a good price. Of course, it sure would be nice if someone decided to repop 70-73 tail sections.

[Greg Reid]

I'm not good enough to really recommend welders, I can only tell you what I got and I've been very, very satisfied with it.
Based on one particular forum member's recommendation, I got a Clarke 180EN from Northern tools. It's made in Italy, is less expensive than Lincoln, Miller or Hobart but it really is a good quality welder. When I opened it, I could see that the circuitry and wiring was very well done and nothing "cheapo" about it. Nothing like the Harbor freight models.
It has infinite wirefeed adjustment (current) and I think 6 voltage setttings. I went with 220 volt also because of the lower current requirements and the ability to weld heavier metal...I figured I could use it for more than just sheetmetal.
It has worked flawlessly for me through almost three rolls of wire. I paid around $500 and it came with auto darkening helmet, wire, gas gauges and a nice metal, rolling cart. I thought the helmet would be a throwaway but it has held up really well and works great.
I would NOT recommend the Harbor Freight welders based on end-user feedback that I've heard and read.

As for spot welding, most folks I know just simulate the spot weld. Punch holes in the top piece of metal, clamp it where you want it to be and fill the hole with your mig welder.
Again, I can't see the photo of the Esprit yet...

[70RamAirIIITA]

Sounds good, I'll check into the Clarke unit; that sounds like a really good deal if it came with all of the accessories including the cart.

Did you have any previous welding experience before you started working on your GTO? I don't have any welding experience but I pick up new things fairly easily. I figure I'll practice on some scrap sheet metal parts until I'm satisfied with my welds enough to start working on the TA.

Let me know if you still can't pull up the pictures of the Esprit; if you can't, send me a PM with your email address and I'll email a couple of them to you.

I went to the Impala thread but the photo's don't show up; there's something there that says the bandwidth of the photos is too large and says upgrade to Photobucket Pro???

[mike nixon]

re the welder, buy the best you can afford and maybe a little better. you'll never regret it.


from the looks of the yellow car i'd build it not cut it up. i driver worse than that as daily drivers.

personally if i were doing you t/a i'd probably short clip the rear. by short clip i mean cutting it thru the floors at the seam under the rear seat and then thru the oem lead seams where the 1/4's are attached to the roof. it'll save a lot of time and as long as you make sure it's true before you weld it up it'll be easier in the long run. you can then repair whatever issues the clip you hang has. this is done a lot in the collision repair business and if you take you time and finish it out where you seam it'll be an undetectable repair.

mike

[70RamAirIIITA]

Hey Greg & Mike -

Well as the day progressed and I thought more about it, I've decided to restore the Esprit and keep my eyes open for another parts car. I went back and checked my book of reference and there were 2,104 4-speed Esprits made - way too darn rare to cut up. It would be different if it was thrashed. Now my problem will be trying to locate a '70 WU 350 engine to bring it back to correct numbers.......

Short-clipping the rear is something I never thought about doing but it sounds like that would be the way to go, rather than having to drill out and weld pieces. Come to think of it, I've seen cars in the junk yards where the whole rear clip has been cut off. Are you talking about cutting the whole back of the car off or just the outer sheet metal? I'm assuming you're talking about the seem in the floor pan under the rear seat where the floor pan meets the rear section, am I correct? Are the OEM lead seams where the 1/4's meet the roof visable once the shell has been taken down to metal? Also, do you know of any reference material for this type of repair? Sorry for all the questions but I appreciate your help.

Thanks again -

[Greg Reid]

That sounds like a great idea and I know that Mike has a lot of experience in this kind of work. I assume you'd continue from the floor through the rear seam of the rockers? Or what exactly?

[md1twal3]

I short clipped a 1966 Caddy 2 door about 12 years ago. Given it's a Caddy, I guess it wasn't really a short clip, huh?

Anyway, it had a seam right about where the front edge of the rear seat bottom lines up. I drilled the spots there, but sectioned in the rockers, rather than try to separate seams in that area and do damage to perfectly great welds/seams/panels. I wanted to preserve the factory lead welds for the roof-to-quarter seam, so I sectioned slightly below that seam, about 3-4 inches down the backglass, if I recall.

It saved a whole lot of work, was a far superior repair to aftermarket panels, which by the way, are not available for the 66 Caddy.

The best advice, measure once, measure twice, measure three times, have someone else quadruple check your measurements, and then cut...And seriously, as long as you measure well, this job is relatively easy.

Also, if this is your practice run for welding, do a little practice on the scrap clip with butt welding. You will need to do that for the rockers & sail panels, if you opt to follow my process.

I wish I had detailed pictures to show. Unfortunately, it was one of my first major projects and I was into paying more attention to what I was doing than to stop and shoot pics.

Good luck, and most of all, have fun doing it!

[70RamAirIIITA]

Hey MD,

Thanks for the input, it's always nice to hear from someone who's done a repair like this (btw, nice rim shot on the "short clip" - I think that would be called an extra-long clip!). What, don't three firebirds make up one '66 Caddy?! It's too bad you don't have photos but at least you have the experience in doing the repair.

I'll have to take a closer look at the back seat section to see what exactly we're talking about; I already have most of the interior gutted so no problem there. I'll take some pictures and post them so you can advise me on exactly what it is that needs to be done. I know it will probably take some time to find a donor, but at least I can get the process down and practice welding butt joints. I'll probably just go to the junk yard and pick up a used fender and cut out sections and practice welding them back in (once I pick up a welder, that is).

Mike, would you happen to have any photos of a short clip repair?

I will absolutely take my time and have fun doing this - it's like therapy; an escape from the day-to-day stuff life throws at you. It doesn't hurt that I love 'Birds too! What fun!