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#1
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Lucas Hot Rod Oil vs. Valvoline VR-1 ?
I read through several of the older ZDDP threads and then decided to take a fresh look at what is available today.
Throughout most of those threads I ran into two areas of concern for the Valvoline VR-1 20w50 that I use. Oil weight is too thick and there are none or not enough rust and corrosion inhibitors. Then I finally found this at Lucas for their Hot Rod 10w40 packaged oil: Available in convenient 5 quart bottles, the formulation is perfect for the Hot Rod and Classic Car crowd with an increased zinc value of 2100 PPM. Because many of these very special machines often spend long periods off the roads, a number of the components of the additive package used in Lucas' Marine oils to provide rust and corrosion protection have been included in its unique formula. At $36 per 5qt jug I can order it at Summit or others with free shipping. Seems like this and a high quality filter would be best for my factory never been apart Pontiac 70k engine? Should I add some ZDDP to it or leave it be? http://lucasoil.com/products/hot-rod...w-40-motor-oil If you have a better and more cost effective way of getting this done please let me know. Thoughts?
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69 OHC ZH Sprint Hurst 3 Speed 3:55 (1 of 213) 99 Valkyrie 1520cc Flat 6 108hp/110tq - For Sale http://sohcsix.yuku.com/forums/1/OHC-lounge Wanted: 1969 OHC "H" Camshaft |
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#2
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Not a bad price. At 2100 ppm zinc I don't see why you'd have to add any more.
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Will Rivera '69 Firebird 400/461, 290+ E D-Ports, HR 230/236, 4l80E, 8.5 Rear, 3.55 gears ‘66 Lemans, 455, KRE D-Ports, TH350, 12 bolt 3.90 gears '64 LeMans 400/461, #16 Heads, HR 230/236, TKO600, 9inch Rear, 3.89 gears (Traded) '69 LeMans Vert, 350, #47 heads: Non-running project |
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#3
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oil threads are a big can of worms, im sure you know if youve read previous ones... but i will try to answer your questions based on my experience & research ive done on oil...
#1- if the engine is stock, you do not need huge amounts of zddp, 2100ppm for the lucas is more than enough. the good oils before they started reducing it were only at about 1300-1500ppm, current oils are at 800 but have other modern additives like moly that reduce the need for tons of zddp. so you would not need to add more for a specialty oil like lucas or vr-1 etc. the stock & broken in cam & springs would be fine with a quality off the shelf oil IMO. or if you want to feel better go with a good diesel oil, they are all spec'd for gas engines & do have higher amounts of zddp than normal car oils. millions of cars are on the road with flat tappet cams doing fine on regular modern oils. i use regular valvoline or any other name brand 10/30 or 10/40 in 2 of my cars with stock engines, actually use walmarts supertech in the daily driver, & 15/40 delo-400 in the car with a mild comp cam, it only runs in the warmer weather. the above is much more cost effective, less than half the price of specialty oils that your stock engine just doesnt need. most "street" cams dont need specialty oil for normal use either. for break in, special good oil & the right additive is a must. & bigger cams with heavy springs or raced motors are what need the expensive oil. valvoline makes a goood diesel oil too, check walmart for a good selection & usually best prices. Last edited by 78w72; 02-06-2017 at 06:52 PM. |
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#4
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Don't forget about things like pour and flow rates at various temps. The VR-1 20x-50 flows at about 0° as I recall. It's on their web site plus other sources.
I run it all year. Car is garaged and driven wherever the roads allow, including last week on a relatively warm January day. Oil pressure was good right away. I like that the carb bowl dries up so it takes some cranking to fill it, all the while oil pressure is building.
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Adam __________________ 1964 LeGTO 469, M21, 3.42 __________________ Sold: 1968 Pontiac LeMans Convertible See it go HERE |
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#5
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Yes the VR-1 is a race oil and has no detergents in it. I know a lot of guys been running it for years in there street cars with no problems. I run it in my turbo car but I change the oil way more than most. The oil cools the turbo so it breaks down faster. Since I change it so much I do not worry about the non detergent. If it was an everyday car I would use a detergent oil.
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#6
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I am still a bit concerned about not having certain additives in the oil but I may be over doing it. I do plan on getting it out on the road much more than I have and putting on enough miles where racing oil may not do. I'll keep looking
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69 OHC ZH Sprint Hurst 3 Speed 3:55 (1 of 213) 99 Valkyrie 1520cc Flat 6 108hp/110tq - For Sale http://sohcsix.yuku.com/forums/1/OHC-lounge Wanted: 1969 OHC "H" Camshaft |
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#7
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Steve F. |
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#8
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http://mcgeerf.tripod.com/americansy...coil/id17.html |
#9
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There is no Zinc #'s posted for Mobil 1 15W50 (which is what I run) despite the fact that I know Mobil 1 has had the information available for years. Mobil recommends their 15W50 for flat tappet camshaft applications and racing applications. It has an excellent pour point, flash point and viscosity ratings per the Amzoil supplied chart. And it has 1300 ppm Zinc and 1200 ppm Phosphorous. I am not saying that Mobil 1 is the best oil or that Amzoil is crap. Simply saying that this "list" is of questionable value. |
#10
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Rocket house car wins with VR-1!
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#11
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I supplied that list for the simple reason of just showing the pour points for different oils and viscosities to show what Adam was talking about. Nothing more. You can take or leave what ever else is stated on that list. It was right off the Amsoil website so I would suspect Amsoil did the research, might want to take that up with them. Your list is from Mobil 1. So naturally one would think it would favor that oil. Conflicting and bias information between the two companies would not surprise me the least bit. They are all trying to sell you something. These oil discussion can be comical, but in the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter too much. Just using what you feel comfortable with is all that matters. |
#12
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Sounds sensible to me
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"No replacement for displacement!" GTOAA--https://www.gtoaa.org/ |
#13
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Too much zinc is not good either. The more ZDDP in the oil, the higher the oil temps will run. It builds heat. You shouldn't run more than you need. A stock street engine wouldn't need more than 1200 PPM, IMO. I personally prefer Brad Penn racing oil. Penn Grade 1 is it's new name. It has great qualities that you just don't see in many oils. It clings to, and stays on parts very well. You can't hardly burn the stuff. I can squirt it on a dull red hot oil gallery plug, and it won't catch on fire. It can stand extreme operating conditions, and heat. It doesn't break down as fast as other oils. It's just awesome oil.
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Paul Carter Carter Cryogenics www.cartercryo.com 520-409-7236 Koerner Racing Engines You killed it, We build it! 520-294-5758 64 GTO, under re-construction, 412 CID, also under construction. 87 S-10 Pickup, 321,000 miles 99Monte Carlo, 293,000 miles 86 Bronco, 218,000 miles |
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#14
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A few things that stood out to me during my research on the subject
*There have been a number of oils that have come out with their own proprietary blend to replace the zddp. They keep it a very tightly held secret and its difficult to know if it will work for a flat tappet cam. *Thus most of us including me go back to oils that have the zinc phosphate. I still use the Rotella T diesel oil, however I don't know it I would endorse it. *The zddp was reduced because it reduces the effect of the catalytic converter. |
#15
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Interesting. So if % ash is most important, then Amsoil wins hands down over everyone with specs listed. I'd like to know more about that.
After that, most everything here seems decent, depending on application. For me, the VR1 looks ok for my use. I did just send an email to Valvoline asking about the additives for my 1,500 mile per year, 1x oil change per year, flat tappet hi-po engine. I'll report back what they say. For me this oil seems to leak the least out of my rear main seal. I tried a fully synthetic (maybe Mobil 1 or Amsoil, I forget) and it definetely started leaking more. I know, I know, that's not supposed to be the case, but it was. So now I'm just paranoid about additives, or the lack thereof. Question: if I'm only doing 1,500 miles/year, without track time, is it best to change the oil before or after the winter. I do drive it year round, but only rarely during the winter. And always driven for at least 10-20 miles to really warm things up. No driveway idling queen here.
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Adam __________________ 1964 LeGTO 469, M21, 3.42 __________________ Sold: 1968 Pontiac LeMans Convertible See it go HERE |
#16
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#17
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I just got an email back from Valvoline already! That's good customer service from an on line form. here is their reply to my question:
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Adam __________________ 1964 LeGTO 469, M21, 3.42 __________________ Sold: 1968 Pontiac LeMans Convertible See it go HERE |
#18
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any decent oil should suffice just fine
i dont pay much attention to the zddp rating Royal Purple does not list a high count, but as others mentioned some use other proprietary "ingredients" as for pour in stuff, with a decent oil, you are probably better off not putting it in Companies like Driven and RP will tell you that you can run into additive clash which can do more harm as for which one is better, alot is also personal choice, you will hear good and bad on just about every brand and weight RP told me their HPS oil is fine for very aggressive cam profiles (flat or roller) XPR has slightly more zddp protection, however i heard it comes from a higher base stock compared to HPS, but.... RP will neither deny nor confirm that (shoot.. sounds like how i have to respond to things at work) |
#19
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For what it's worth:
Apparently there is good Valvoline and mediocre Valvoline. California has banned the sale of the VR1 in the black bottle, but we can still get the same named oil in the silver bottle. California limits the amount of zinc and phosphorous in oils sold that might end up in street vehicles, and if we can buy it here, it's probably no where near what it once was. What color is YOUR bottle? Also for what it's worth, we changed to the Lucas Hot Rod Oil for break-in and recommend it for future oil changes. Our preferred machine shop contracts for a lot of race teams, and has been selling it to a lot of circle track and desert racers. Don't know whether they are on to something, or if it is simply the latest craze.
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Mick Batson 1967 original owner Tyro Blue/black top 4-speed HO GTO with all the original parts stored safely away -- 1965 2+2 survivor AC auto -- 1965 Catalina Safari Wagon. |
#20
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The black bottle seems to be synthetic and the grey is dino.
But can't you order it on Amazon regardless? That's how I get mine at lowest prices.
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Adam __________________ 1964 LeGTO 469, M21, 3.42 __________________ Sold: 1968 Pontiac LeMans Convertible See it go HERE |
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