[jmdotter]

I have a 1970 LeMans wagon with a 350/TH350. I'm looking into the possibility of cleaning it up and using it to pull between a 25' and 31' Airstream travel trailer behind it ('70s era), with the use of a Hensley Arrow sway control / load leveling hitch. I know the brakes would need to be upgraded all around, etc. My main question is regarding the frame. I've read that most the A-Bodies are good for a Class 2 only because of the frame thickness behind the axle. I'm wondering if the wagon frame could take a Class III. I believe it shares the frame with the El Camino and Chevelle wagons.

Anybody have experience pulling a large travel trailer with an A Body wagon? Is it possible, or should I be looking for a full-size?

[steve v]

It would likely handle it as far as the frame is concerned but I think overall it's a bad idea. I have a '68 Tempest wagon that I planned to make into a swap meet parts hauler but I doubt it would safely tow anything bigger than a 12' enclosed trailer.

A 25' - 31' travel trailer has some weight to it, it's probably heavier than the wagon itself & that's just asking for problems as far as braking/handling is concerned. A 14' trailer or even a pop up would probably a safer limit for your wagon. A full size will have 15" wheels, bigger brakes, longer/wider wheel base, more weight and likely a 455 under the hood. Add some airbags & you could probably get a full size to do it.

Post some pics of your wagon when you can, I'd love to see that color on a wagon!

[HWYSTR455]

Not sure about which class would be ok, but my friend used to pull a 29' boat with his '73 Olds Delta 88, no problem. It had trailer brakes, which I believe after a certain size is manditory. I originally bought my '71 LeMans to tow a 27' Fountain boat, and that too would have been no problem (bought a house instead of the boat though). I would think the wagon would be a better choice than the LeMans I have to tow with. Look at what people used to tow back in the day, sure it would be fine. Have to make sure the car/wagon is setup for it, like brakes are up to par, trans, cooler, tires, and brakes.

.

[Johnny406]

I'd talk to Steve Barrack about it, he's done similar feats himself.

[jmdotter]

It's a project. Needs the usual... quarters, paint, the windows pulled out and resealed, the tailgate overhauled. I'd be pulling the whole car apart to redo it. Working the 350, built 200R4, discs all around. I'm trying to get an idea if it can be done with the LeMans before I start off down that road.

As far as I know, the Airstreams require a Class III, and they have trailer brakes. Dad has a 25' Airstream that he towed with a Hensley Arrow nitch, and the truck he used was a '96 Land Rover. It has a 4.0L V8 (a variation on the old Buick 215 engine) and it has 100" wheelbase. Seems to me if that thing can pull one, the Pontiac could in style.

[HWYSTR455]

Cutlass, eh? 350 car? Anyway, the tires themselves were probably the problem there, but understandable.

You may want to re-think that 2004R, but that's my opinion. You'd be better off with a TH350/400, without a doubt. If you are serious about OD, then 4L80E it. Could sell the 200 and make up the cost. But I'll bet money you won't get 5k miles out of that trans towing any kind of weight.

Class 3 (Class III) trailer hitch
Trailer hitch with weight carrying rating of up to 5,000 lbs gross trailer weight and 500 lbs tongue weight. Also sometimes used to refer to a hitch with any 2" receiver, regardless of rating.

Ok, after looking at what a Class II hitch is, shoot, that's cake. I would air bag it, and use a load leveling type hitch, but you shouldn't have a problem. Pretty sure the one on my friend's Delta was a 3.

.

[jmdotter]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

You may want to re-think that 2004R, but that's my opinion. You'd be better off with a TH350/400, without a doubt. If you are serious about OD, then 4L80E it. Could sell the 200 and make up the cost. But I'll bet money you won't get 5k miles out of that trans towing any kind of weight.

Class 3 (Class III) trailer hitch
Trailer hitch with weight carrying rating of up to 5,000 lbs gross trailer weight and 500 lbs tongue weight. Also sometimes used to refer to a hitch with any 2" receiver, regardless of rating.

.

Just to clarify, I have a TH350, I was planning on an overdrive for cruising when I wasn't towing. I would like to avoid anything electronically controlled. Maybe a Gear Vendors style overdrive?

I'm pretty sure I will need a Class IV for a 31'... Found a data plate on one of the Airstreams sites saying that a 31' may have a GVWR max weight rating of 8300 lbs (though I think that's one of the newer wide-body ones). My Dad's '76 25' has a GVWR max of ~5800.

Originally Posted by 70Steve

Any more shots of your wagon? That is a good looking thing for sure.

Not at present. She's not really photo worthy at this point ether, haha. I'll have to keep a look out for that brochure, thanks for the heads up. Only brochure I have at present is the '70 Wagons line up, and it lists only engine specs; nothing about towing.

[HWYSTR455]

70Steve - That's a fantastic idea, look up the original factory brochures! Wish I had thought of that! Heh-heh! So it says to go big, Bonnies and the like? Yeah, that's the Delta 88 equivelent, makes sense.

Ah, so you have a TH350 now, got it. I'd leave it. Could do 3.08s and be good all around, maybe get a towing-type converter too. Electronically controlled trans' are no more expensive than doing a 2004R right, by the way, and GVs aren't much fun, not to mention the most expensive option of all of them. A lot of 2004R builders these days are even moving away from doing them, and going 4L80Es. Guess you could try the 2004R, but think you will be dissappointed, especially if you can recoop some moneys now on it.

You stuck on a 31'? Or is that what you have access to? Maybe shoot for a shorter one? And go Class 3 as you originally hoped?

.

[70Steve]

Nice wagon...the 1970 Pontiac trailering brochure might make for some interesting reading.

One of the things listed...Pontiac recommends that trailers over 3500lbs loaded weight be pulled by the larger, longer wheelbased Pontiacs, specifically, Catalina, Executive and Bonneville.

The 12 page brochure pops up on ebay all the time, if you can, try and get one with the added pricing leaflet still in it. They don't sell for much. On the cover is a turquoise Bonnie towing a big Airstream too!

They mention Class 2, 2000 to 3500lbs and a tongue load of 200 to 350 lbs but also list Heavy Trailers Class 3 3500 to 6000 lbs, tongue load of 350 to 600lbs. So it looks like they don't recommend it, but if you must, this is what you need to order for heavy towing.

Any more shots of your wagon? That is a good looking thing for sure.

[Bob Rutledge]

My dad used to tow a 7000 pound 26 foot Grady White fishing boat with a 1970 Olds Cutlass. Only issue he had was getting the boat out of the water, a few times it would just sping the tires, and had to be pulled out occassionally.

[Half-Inch Stud]

[Half-Inch Stud]

MY 95 Lincoln Towncar towed the 23' Airsream quite well and averaged 14 MPG wile towing, and on 92Otane fuel. We sold that 23' Airstream.

Our 28' Airstream is difficult to tow with the 4.6L Lincoln Towncan so, I've been looking to Class III Hitch the 68GTO, but the rear frame seems too floppy to tow the 28'. So this thread is interesting...

[Ken K]

This is a 16 foot. It has a class 2 rating.

[Ken K]

This is a hitch on a A body. Any extra bracing will decrease the ground cleareance. I would talk to a Uhaul dealer. They know what can be done.

[70Steve]

Here are some of the brochures on ebay at the moment.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1970-...sQ5fLiterature

I have a 70 El Camino (same chassis as the wagon) that was used by the previous owner as a tow car. It has a HD Hayman Reece tow bar on it because he regularly towed full size cars with it...anyhow, I broke down one day and got a tilt tray to take it home, when the towie tied it down he threw a chain over the towbar and then just winched forward. I was standing right beside it and couldn't believe how far the frame compressed the body bushings...I actually yelled out to him to stop, I thought it had bent the frame it went that far down.

When I got it home I realised how tired the rear body bushings were...I guess all the towing the PO did with it killed them. I thought I might replace the two rear bushes with polyurethane ones. Just an idea to keep in mind.

[Half-Inch Stud]

Originally Posted by 70Steve

Here are some of the brochures on ebay at the moment.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1970-...sQ5fLiterature

.....replace the two rear bushes with polyurethane ones. Just an idea to keep in mind.

Copies into Word doc well. Will see how it prints. Thanks!

[poncho37]

Hello guys , I don't post much here but I have some towing anecdotes to share with a hot rodded 71 Olds Vista Cruiser. I towed a 26 foot camper on numerous trips from L.I. to the Adirondacks located upstate N.Y. Approximately a 215 mile trip. I also used it with my car trailer for limited local towing. I think the camper weighs around 5 K pounds. My wagon weighs around 4400 lbs. I had a class 4 hitch that mounted in an H pattern across the rear frame rails in four spots.

The Olds had a 350 Olds Rocket, turbo 400 and 3.73 12 bolt Chevelle rear. I'm shooting from memory with my parts list but here goes. The engine was given a low budget build unlike every other area of the car. new gaskets and seals , relapped valves, pocket port stock 71 heads , small RV style cam that was equivalent the Edelbrock performer specs (205/215??)with new stock style rocker with milled bridges to give proper clearance between the inner lifter plunger and clip. I used an Edelbrock performer and a holley 650 spreadbore q-jet replacement carb. I used headers and a fabbed 2 1/2 inch exhaust w/ x pipe and big super turbo mufflers. I took the car to E-town and the trap speed and weight indicated 216 hp at the wheels.

I rebuilt the trans with a traveler converter to full B+M specs including that special sprag that had a higher torque rating, deep alum pan, shift kit and recalibrated governor.

The rear was refreshed also with new bearings and seals and I remember using some special spider gears inside the limited slip.

The entire suspension was redone with polygraphite bushings ,and all new parts. I used giant sway bars that I recall as being 1 3/8 in size. In addition, I mounted an on board compressor with the air bags that adjust while moving as needed. I used radial T/A's on rally rims (possible mistake-load rating). I used ceramic pads on the front discs and switched to new big car 11" drum rear brakes.





I listed my mods to show you that I really tried to make this work. My towing experiences were far from positive.First trip I got around 6 1/2 mpg and in few years fooling with secondary springs ,two stage power valves etc, I got that up to almost 9 1/2 mpg.
To get there I switched the A/C off uphill and limited my speed to around 65 mph which was around 3000 rpm on the tach.

Anytime a tractor trailer passed at 70 + mph the entire rig would go into a "wobble" that necessitated a touch on the trailer brake manually to straighten it out. The long trip was a real "white knuckle special" where 100% concentration was needed at ALL times to avoid a wreck. After two near accidents I gave up. The most serious was going down steep wet hill with braking bumps (courtesy of tractor trailers) where I slid through a red traffic light in a monsoon rainstorm with locked wheels after I went down in second gear at 20 mph and just couldn't stop. Luckily, all the people waiting at the light SAW what happened and just sat there as the light turned green. (Never happen where I live)

I had a second incident towing a 74 Grandville Carcass to the scrap yard where a tractor trailer went past me at 70+ as I was accelerating onto The LIE that sent my rig out of control. I don't know how I missed the guard rail during one of those corrections. All I saw was the Hours and hours I spent block sanding nearly go down the drain.

So, I bought a new GMC Duramax CC (Couldn't bring myself to get the Chevy) and now my trips are a breeze. My wife commented that when we got to our destination she was always exhausted, now she feels great. BTW , the truck got 15.1 mpg towing the same trailer home empty. I have an 72 Airstream that I was intending to restore to go with my wagon, but I think I'll take the truck and enjoy my vacations.

Sorry for the off topic vehicles ,but I think my info is relevant to the thread.

[goatwgn]

Havent pulled a large travel trailer with my 66' (which is a little lighter than your 70), but I have towed other cars with it (including a Suburban one time for a friend of mine- that had a bad fuel pump leave him on the side of the road). The hitch I made myself out of an old class 3 hitch for a pickup truck> I reinforced the sides with 1/4 inch plates, and bolted it on the frame with large 1/2 inch washers and grade 8 bolts. The Gas tank on mine is a little different than yours however, yours is on the lh side, mine is mounted in the center on brackets. I do have 15 inch wheels and disc brakes I added, as well as air shocks (air bags would likely be better), and heady duty aluminum radiator, and large transmission cooler, with deep pan. When I did this sort of thing (havent done it in years) used to do a lot of "side car repairs for people that I didnt get paid for"the car had a 455 with th400 and 3.08 rear. I have a built 2004r (CPT) in there now and a 3.42 gear(same engine) Havent towed with that yet, and dont really plan on it. I do beleive I would have no problem, however, if I kept the tranny out of overdrive and drove gently-which is how you should with a trailer anyways. Its a moot point, however, as I use my "Daily driver" 74' Cutlass (pretty heavy intermediate (3972lbs)(with Olds 350/th350 with valve body mods) to tow my utility trailer that I use to haul heavy items I have to move. Car has 480,000 miles on it and I still hauled an engine up to Burkeville Va with it(about 130 miles one way) used no oil and trans shifted fine. Years ago, a friend of mine had a 74' Grandville with a towing package. Had a 200 lb hitch that wrapped around the rear of the frame. This thing would pull anything. I would put it up against any "Tow vehicle" that anyone can come up with out there today. Car weighed 5100 lbs with the hitch installed. Had (of course) a 455/th400 with a 3.23 limited slip rear. If you want an older Pontiac that will tow that trailer with ease, look into an earlier full sized car. The intermediate, can tow it without a problem if you do the proper upgrades though, IMO. Many of the "upgrades" will make the car drive better as well. (Larger wheels and tires, deep tranny pans, tranny coolers, good rear end ratios with limited slips, large radiators, airbags, heavy duty hitch that ties into the side rails of the frame etc.)Its not going to be cheap to do it right. Good luck with your project, and keep us updated.

[rontiac]

My opinion is that trailer is too big for the wagon to safely tow. The frame out back and in the center of the vehicle is "C" channel, not boxed. I even think the 350 motor is going to be way under powered to pull unless you're really geared up for it. Now, you could make it work, but I don't think it would be worth the risk. Just my 2 cents. Your wagon weighs around 4200 pounds and you'd be trying to pull and stop 8300 pounds..........

[Formulabruce]

I would BOX the frame as mentioned above and I would add cross supports. I tried towing with a 68 GTO and the frame can easily twist.
ON THE TRANNY>> there are multiple places building NON ELE 4L80 transmissions that shift like a TH400, NO WIRES
QUOTE>>"This MAD DOG TRANSMISSION is designed for lots of abuse, excellent for RACING or TOWING heavy weight. This transmissions will not take away any horsepower from your engine. As a matter of fact, this transmission will deliver more rear wheel horsepower than the factory 4L80E!! The reason being is that we run roller bearings instead of thrust washers which drag inside the transmission and create more heat. The most common problem on the 4L80E is loosing reverse and 3rd gear due to the aluminum pressure regulator valve binding up and sticking at wide open pressure. We put a steel pressure regulator valve to eliminate that common problem. Another common problem is damaged accumulator bores. We use the updated Sonnax sleeve and piston to eliminate that problem. Over 26 years of building experience is put into each transmission to ensure that the pressure and clearances are to specifications.

>>>>It will come with a Full Manual Valve Body that will eliminate the on-board computer. <<< "

PS, to use the lock up in a 2004R you still need ton supply 12v to it after it is modified for use in an older car. I like the 2004R but it is NOT a towing transmission. Please put in a tranny cooler no matter what. LOve your wagon!