[Todd Kozak]

It appears that the first 2000 were all built with the same options, or very similar anyway, 4 speed trans, radio p/b, belts-deluxe, console, pwr-strg w/t, glass s/r all, saf-t-trk-hd,mirror-remot, tach-hood-mt,rally ga&cl,disc brk pwr, the judge. The only variations I've seen is white or black interior color. All were carousel red.So, I would say that Pontiac corporate spec'd these out and then sold them as a 'theme' musclecar or package to the dealers. This is quite common these days, you can't order much anymore, its all pre-fab when it comes to factory performance machines. What does everybody think?Was the 69 Judge the first time this occurred? In the days of free love and free thinking and options galore, was the 69 Judge the first 'pre-packaged' musclecar?

[Steve Hoog]

When do you think they released these cars? I don't know about the option thing, but I do know they were all the same color and heard they did not have the glove box emblem.

[md1twal3]

How does one know if they have one of the first 2000?

[md1twal3]

Originally Posted by md1twal3

How does one know if they have one of the first 2000?

???

[Steve Hoog]

I've read something like that several times over the years, so I loosely take it as a fact until better information comes along. The origin of the story may be Pontiac, but I'd have to dig in some old books to find what I'm remembering. After I get done cleaning out the ole garage, I'll see if I can find it.

[smrace]

I agree with jimwankers, I use to own one of the 2,000 and it had the options as mentioned and I have noticed that about other Judgea made early that would be in the first batch of cars made. Mine was a black interior 4 speed car.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Have always thought mine was probably one of the first batch, but could easily be wrong.

2C build with no glovebox emblem or dash emblem. Not quite the same exact equipment as previously mentioned. Carousel/Parchment : RamIII 3peed manual : 3.55 Saf T HD : In-Dash Tach&Gauges : Console : Radio PB : Front-Rear mats : Door edge Guards : SoftRay WS : PDB : PS : Judge.

It's getting 9 more options added when I do the Car.

It wouldn't break my heart either way, but do we have a confirmed date range on the first 2000 ?

[Todd Kozak]

I think they were built in January and February of 1969, they were all as described above and of course I forgot to mention the first time, they were all sans the glovebox emblem. But back to the question, was this the first time an automaker popped a 'pre-packaged' i.e no options , musclecar on the public?

[Steve Hoog]

Thanks for the date Jim.

md1twal3, An early build date would be needed, and it may be the no glove box emblem that is the other. I think the rear lower qtr molding was no on the first amount of something, not sure it was just early GTO's or the Judges?

[md1twal3]

Originally Posted by steved400

Thanks for the date Jim.

md1twal3, An early build date would be needed, and it may be the no glove box emblem that is the other. I think the rear lower qtr molding was no on the first amount of something, not sure it was just early GTO's or the Judges?

I have a third week of Feb Judge, no Judge emblem, but I do not have a console. It has the floor mount 8-track player. Not sure about the rear quarter trim as mine is gone and the quarters are very rusty. I will look for screw holes for evidence in that area.

I am just trying to find out, so I can help add support for the theory, or add evidence against it.

I wasn't sure if the cowl tag or the VIN offered the specific number it was, but then Judge was an option, so I suppose it was pretty hard to tell from numbers in either of those locations...

[Ron Landis]

built late february, Carousel Red, RA III, 4-speed, p/s, pdb, hood tach and guages, s/r windshield, AM push button, remote mirror, no console, has Judge emblem, no GTO dash emblem, has rear quarter chrome and deck lid trim, and 3.55 Saf-t-trac. Black interior, light blue stripes. BTW....what is the date on the stripe color break? I've always used this feature to identify early cars. Was I wrong?

[Steve Hoog]

I'm fairly certain; although it's not a fact, the emblem is as close to a sign as you can get. Unless ALL the production figures were tallied and statiscally divided, I don't know how else you would tell. I had an auto III Judge a while back with no glove box, and I wondered if it was one of these first few or some one helped them self to the original glove box door. I've got the invoice at work and can check the date tomorrow.

But if my old Judge was one, then you can forget about the option thing being preset. I imagine that if these cars were pre shipped by Pontiac to the dealers, the just kept it at a minimum of options.

My uncle ordered cars for a our family dealership, I'll call him to see if he remembers anything.

[1969Judge]

md1twal3,

I don't believe that the rear quarter trim had anything to do with this. My understanding was that the trim went on all the '69 GTO's until they ran out, somewhere in the May/June '69 timeframe (depending on the plant). Both of my cars came with it. One was built in Baltimore in March and the other in Arlington in May.

jegstek,

Is there some significance to the deck lid trim? I don't recall hearing that one being mentioned before.


From my research on the Judge convertibles, they don't seem to follow any particular patterns concerning options. I have found cars with only 3 options and some with 24 or 25 options. Many of the cars that I am aware of were built after March which makes me wonder if that had something to do with warmer weather approaching in many areas of the US and Canada? It makes some sense but that is just a guess.

[UPC-WU2]

My April-built Judge has rear quarter trim. It also has glovebox emblem and no dash emblem. Built at Arlington.

[Steve Hoog]

Just had an interesting conversation with my uncle about this, his memory typically sucks but he remembered this well.

This was indeed the first car that Pontiac did this "pre ship" sort of thing, but it carried on from that point with specialty cars. The one and only Judge that went through our dealership was a part of this. It was a combonation of phone calls and written communications that they asked him if they wanted 1 of the first Judges, he thinks they may have offered 1 to all dealerships. He wasn't clear on this part, but he thinks Pontiac optioned the car. I have seen the dealer bill on this car; and the car itself, it had a power antenna and was a III car with 4 speed. That's all I can remember off the top.

Certainly not hard evidence, but something cool to work with I think.

[Buck Wilde]

SupercarBob

I have a 1969 Judge build the 4th week in January (01D) that meets all of your critera for a factory/zone order for an automatic except it doesn't have A/C. Was A/C supposed to be part of the package for the automatic factory/zone order cars?

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

BUCK : looks like the "pattern Automatic" did include A/C as stated by Bob and documented by SWEET's document. The order number on your PHS invoice or billing history will have the 000** pattern code if it is a pattern Car. Check yours and see - always a slim chance it was made with an engineering note to delete it from a pattern car.


GeeTO Tiger: Thanks for telling us your data plate build code of 2C. Ram4King and I were mislead by your shipped date of 3/11 . It is about 15-20 days later than than the build, on up in March. YOURS is DEFINITELY one of the Pattern Cars and first slated 2000. But it was built 15-20 days before a dealer (Hockett Pontiac) put in an order that caught with your Car. It was built and waiting for enough orders to come in and get it. Didn't take too long to get them all sent out to dealers.

Mine is 2C of Baltimore and shipped 2/20, but not quite as well equipped as the Pattern 4speeds. I think those with the zone order 000** built before the end of February are the ones holding the Historical signifigance of being the "First 2000".

Pontiac KNEW they were going to build at least those 2000 zone order patterns regardless of any other orders or not - straight up and down. All others like mine were built when - and - as - requested.

[Buck Wilde]

My car fits the guidelines for a pattern automatic judge. The dealer order is 00032 and there is 06 991 in the right hand corner of the invoice. There are two things on the invoice that maybe could indicate the change to delete A/C but I'm not really sure what they mean. They are:

ADV.ASSN.COL - CODE 066 - AMOUNT 10.00
OPTIONAL LOC - CODE 066 - (NO AMOUNT LISTED)

It seems kind of odd that they would deviate from the pattern cars at random or on a case by case basis. This car was shipped to PA. Do you think there is a chance that pattern automatic cars that were shipped north didn't get A/C? Maybe there were southern and northern automatic pattern cars? I would think Pontiac would want pattern cars to be sent all over the country. However, putting A/C in an automatic pattern car headed for Minnesota or Wisconsin would make them more expensive and harder to sell in areas where you didn't really need A/C.

This may have been covered before but when was it determined where a pattern car was going to be shipped? Did this happen before it was built based on the zone info?

[Geeto Tiger]

Buck: The first one is like an advertising charge. The dealer does some advertising, and pay's it off buy tacking $10 to your car. The second one is that your car was dropped off at an optional LOCaton.

Baron: Wow thats awsome, so that car sat for awhile before a dealer took it? I was hoping Hocket automatically picked it up..

[Steve Hoog]

Pontiac GTO Restoration Guide page 112

"The intial 2,000 units were "planned" models, and were all painted Carousel Red."

Goes on to talk about both dash emblems when and why, and the molding as 1969Judge talked about. And there were no Judges sequenced before January 69, the glove box emblem became available in mid February according to the book. That may leave room for the first 2,000 to have the emblem or the opposite, so that may not be a dead give away. The only difference I had ever heard was the different colors became available after the first 2,000, not that options were effected by this production number. Would be interesting to know the facts on how the first few were indeed optioned.

These books aren't perfect as we all know, so take it with a grain of salt.