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#1
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We need to learn/adapt or be left behind....
Or: why I chose CV-1 heads,
We, as Pontiac people have had a very tough road to follow for many years before the advent of the Edelbrock heads released out around 1995. Until then, we were circling the drain in the performance arena. These heads took new ways of thinking to extract the hidden power they held within. At first they performed "better" than iron, but we kept plugging away finding more and more power to where we are today - power levels that were not even considered possible back then. Then we had a few more heads appear on the market horizon and again each had its own learning curve as to what they like to work best. And yes, there were rivals amongst the Pontiac camp for all kinds of reasons - from "I don't have them so they are junk" to "they have problems of x or y" and all the way to even "then it isn't a Pontiac". So enter the CV-1 head and because I embrace change, a departure from the current norm and in this case the divorcing of the pinched intake ports. But with this comes a need for a level of thinking - thinking outside of our "Pontiac comfort zone". At first our gains were modest but then some of us started to look at this head as an air pump and not a Pontiac air pump, looking around at other successful engine designs and starting to find that this head likes some of the non-Pontiac specific things that once hurt performance. Now nowhere in memory (of a credible stature) has anyone said anything about Tigers, HP's or Edelbrock are no good, just that we now have another branch of our Pontiac evolution tree. With all of this being said, why can't we all work under the same big tepee, rather than having wars between all the different tribes?
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1994 Formula 535ci NA CV-1 - single 1050 with c14 - 940hp@7000/825tq@5200 Pontiac Powered 4th Gen Project Progress |
#2
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yawn. Maybe some say the are "bad". I don't and haven't. I've only asked the cheerleaders to "show results" as well as promise results. There have been disappointing examples of e heads, tigers, high ports, as well as outstanding (good) examples.
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EHTTFMF! Being dead, it is not hard on you. You don't even know you're dead. It is hard on everyone else that is not dead. BEING STUPID WORKS THE SAME WAY! The rest of us suffer. |
#3
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I appreciate the new products and they will develop with time. I run in small tire heads up classes where a canted valve headed pontiac does not fit any of the rulebooks. It is not allowed, therefore I don't see myself or others looking to spend money, time and effort to try and maximize something we cannot run. I am not going to comment on performance as there have been enough comments made about that. However, it does get old from my perspective listening to differences in cost, which I will say with racing anything that makes over 800hp is a wash. Offset this , shaft that doesn't mean s**t. If you're going to play on this playground you will be spending $$$$$$$.
Hillbilly Out!! |
#4
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"We need to learn/adapt or be left behind..."
Just playing devil's advocate here, but...the quickest and fastest Pontiacs on the planet are still running inline valve wedge heads.
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Just a blind squirrel looking for a nut. |
#5
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I certainly cannot speak for the Goateus Maximus team, but I can say that we sure don't run inline heads because they are better....
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The Following User Says Thank You to Travis Q For This Useful Post: | ||
#6
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Quote:
Calvin Hill Hill Performance 708-250-7420 |
#7
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Put the CV-1 car on the track against the people you mentioned above and move on. Tom Vaught
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"Engineers do stuff for reasons" Tom Vaught Despite small distractions, there are those who will go Forward, Learning, Sharing Knowledge, Doing what they can to help others move forward. |
#8
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He would get embarrassed. I was just looking over Ultra Street rules and any Canted Valve head has a 50# weight penalty. Hmm, I wonder why that is?
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First Pontiac powered street car in the 7's 7.940@170.84. 3460#s |
#9
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That post wasn't directed to you, but thanks for the concern. BTW, the picture posted about a PS Ford head with the valves rotated around would require a new design block with the lifter bores in the proper location, but I'm sure you know that. Calvin Hill Hill Performance 708-250-7420 |
#10
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EHTTFMF!
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540 c.i. Ultra Street Combo Tiger Heads with Tiger Intake Induction Solutions fogger with .046 jet First ultra street/ultimate street NOS car to get into the 4's! 1.079 4.559 153.23. 3100 lbs 7.77 @ 169 1/4 Mile (2015) with EHTTFMF!! T2TTFMF! Special Thanks to: Ron at Rhodes Custom Auto Butler Peformance Jim Hostler's Transmissions (HOSGTO) on here Induction Solutions BES Racing Engines. Cheeseburger VP Racing Fuels Calvert Racing |
#11
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Given the time, I could design a billet cylinder head that would be light years ahead of what we have now for our application. And, like Marcella said, I might sell three sets in the next twenty years. Until the Good Lord gives me another thirty hours in a week and a lot more disposable income, I'll be forced to stick with what we have, unfortunately. So be it. And if I had the disposable income, I would probably just build a Brad 8 or a AJ481X, anyway. At least it would be faster, lighter, and easier to get parts for! |
#12
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I can't believe the KRE hemi heads wouldn't "work better".
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Anybody else on this planet campaign a M/T hemi Pontiac for eleven seasons? ... or has built a record breaking DOHC hemi four cylinder Pontiac? ... or has driven a couple laps of Nuerburgring with Tri-Power Pontiac power?(back in 1967) ... or has a Pontiac born the same year as Jim Wangers? (1926} |
#13
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Just my .02 |
#14
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But.....I fully support other racers using any and all of the alternatives. Our little community is too small to be taking sides. JMHO, Eric
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"Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth" noted philosopher Mike Tyson Life begins at the end of your comfort zone. “The mind, once stretched by a new idea, never returns to its original dimensions.” |
#15
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Absolutely!
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#16
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Myself, I could give a crap less what the head looks like. I am so sick and tired of hearing "it sure is fast for a Pontiac". I want it to be fast, PERIOD. |
#17
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I'm not sure we will ever break that stigma from the Brand Xers, Travis.
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Just a blind squirrel looking for a nut. |
#18
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Quote:
Some wisdom in Travis's post. Reminds me of what Fritz always says about Mickey running Pontiacs those few years (" ... who in their right mind would race a Pontiac against a hemi?...").
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Anybody else on this planet campaign a M/T hemi Pontiac for eleven seasons? ... or has built a record breaking DOHC hemi four cylinder Pontiac? ... or has driven a couple laps of Nuerburgring with Tri-Power Pontiac power?(back in 1967) ... or has a Pontiac born the same year as Jim Wangers? (1926} |
#19
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This chit is getting so old. Its actually frustrating. These head wars are being debated and promoted by the ignorant and misinformed.( not pointing any fingers and no disrespect to any)Just sayin
Just for the record, im going to say in my personal opinion ALL,EVERY SINGAL AFTERMARKET PONTIAC HEAD, FROM THE STAND POINT OF A ALL OUT RACE HEAD IS A PILE OF SHIIIIIIIT!!!!!!! Evey head is way behind in design by todays standards of a class A race only head. With that out of the way you can see that there is no bias opinion, they all suck. Yes my Pro Ports suck to. A canted valve head by design is far superior to a in-line head. Reasons. 1. The valve on its axis drives away from the bore as it lifts off the seat. 2. Both intake and exhaust valves can occupy the same space at lift. This allows packaging larger valves and or better valve placement in relation to the bore. 3.Allows for better push rod geometry when attempting to have a large cross section port because the rocker can be rotated about the valve axis and push rod is at similar angle as the valve. Also makes for a lighter stronger rocker. 4. Allow for a more central located spark plug if there is enough chamber rotation. 5. If there is enough chamber or valve location rotation, this spreads the distance between siamese exhaust ports producing more uniform heat across the head. Or at least reducing localized heat. Now with that said just because a head is a canted valve design does not make it better. All of the things and more need to be manipulated as much as they can be to see performance advantages. Also when you design a canted valve head but still try and utilize the same cam and lifter bore lay out, The new valve train (push rods & rockers) now greatly dictates the INDUCTION LAYOUT. Almost always, the more you try and make things work with the with the stock lobe and lifter bore patterns, the worse the induction lay out is vs what it could be. IMO the CV head has way more potential than a Performer RPM head ever dreamed of. But when I say potential, I say that with a welder, Bridgeport and many die grinders in my shop. LOL But im not saying that I think you need to move and change every thing on the CV for it to be better than the ehead. Im not, not saying that ether.LOL Fact is I think the CV with just proper porting has more potential than any RPM ehead. But I also don't think that sets the bar very high. IMO My thoughts on things I hear a lot around here. "Need time to develop"------BS if its that much better it will show its face! "Just glade we have so many head choices"-------IMO I am very discouraged to be a Pontiac guy with the choices we have. But I don't expect it to change because the market will not support a double throw down race head. I could design and make it but all I would do is waste my life savings and sell 3 sets of heads. I hope this comes across as a informative opinion and not that of bashing or promoting. POSPPTTFMF
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John Marcella Marcella Manifolds Inc. john@marcellamanifolds.net ph. 248-259-6696 Last edited by john marcella; 06-17-2013 at 05:06 AM. |
#20
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I only know what my dyno sheet says and feel the power on track....something out of reach with "old iron factory heads".....not out to build a formula 1 motor.. Pontiac by design has limitations but it's what I like..not the limitations...Pontiacs. I certainly respect your knowledge and skills. Thanks for playing with Pontiacs..
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ECM member. 2008 Outlaw Pontiac Drag Series Champion MANDRA Do it now fool! Life is short. 69 Grand Prix/3163lbs / IAII 535 w/ Tiger heads by Gaydosh....9.35@ 144 so far.. through mufflers. 1.26 60'. Going back to track with pump gas engine.... My 60 Ventura retired to street/strip duty.. |
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