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#1
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Hydraulic Lifters
I was talking to a long time customer couple of days ago who is deeply involved with camshafts and engine building.
We were talking about lifters for these engines. He told me that currently Topline are the only ones left that absolutely and for sure are USA made. http://toplineauto.com/wp-content/up...on-Catalog.pdf I'll add here that this is NOT the first time I've heard this, and that the other sources who have told me this were pretty reliable, but I typically stick to topics that I have DIRECT experience with as it helps to keep me out of trouble as my enemies and "fan club" miss no opportunities to roll me under the bus on the Forums. Even so now that I'm retired bad cases of CRS and even worse cases of DGS make it easier to stray off course a bit. Anyhow, he also told me that the tolerances are and always have been very close and that they make more power on the dyno than any of the Mexican and offshore varities we are currently seeing on the market. He uses and prefers the "S" or Slow-bleed offerings claiming that they take full advantage of the lobe profile and you end up with several benefits. One is that they make more power over the engines RPM range and also they do not go "stupid" at high RPM's loosing control of things (lifter crash). I've witnessed the high RPM issues several times on the dyno but blamed it on the cam profile(s) and not the lifters being used. So during the conversation I asked about Johnson lifters, which is a USA company but not affileated in any way that I know of with Hylift Johnson. He told me that Johnson is and has been importing and re-boxing lifters from out of the USA for some time now and to avoid them. Of course being second hand information we have to take it as that, but it does bring up some interesting points as hardy a day goes by that we don't hear about someone loosing a camshaft during or shortly after "break-in", noisy valve train, etc, etc........
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If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read this in English, thank a Veteran! https://cliffshighperformance.com/ 73 Ventura, SOLD 455, 3740lbs, 11.30's at 120mph, 1977 Pontiac Q-jet, HO intake, HEI, 10" converter, 3.42 gears, DOT's, 7.20's at 96mph and still WAY under the roll bar rule. Best ET to date 7.18 at 97MPH (1/8th mile), |
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#2
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Thank you for the information. I like reading your insights.
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#3
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Clif Rules
Me, too.
Last edited by shifty; 11-12-2022 at 09:03 PM. Reason: spelling |
#4
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No. These were the regular Crower lifters.
I can get you the part number tomorrow. |
#5
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Are these Topline/Hylift-Johnson?
I think so based on wh33lman's photo. If not, can you ID them? I found them while rummaging yesterday and reminded me of this thread. I bought them off eBay many years ago and forgot about them.. |
#6
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Good info Cliff, I wonder if the Elgin brand is using them since their Pontiac lifter is using "HL" 1951 "S" in the PN# #HL1951SPONL
I thought I had heard the Summit Brand and Rhoads brands were also but not sure anymore
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63 Catalina coupe 467 cid budget drag car 11's 1/4 , 7.3 1/8th pump gas n/a 66 Star Chief Executive 57k mile 69 Le Mans 2 dr HT 350 85k mile 15 sec 1/4 69 Firebird 400 Burgandy/Black 70 Olds Rallye 350 F85 4 speed 3.91's 70 Olds Cutlass Cruiser Red Wagon 350 101k miles 15 sec 1/4 12 sec w 455 74 Cheyenne Super C10 LWB Gen 6 454 w ZZ502 cam 3.07gear 13.1 1/4, 8.3 1/8 2020 RAM 1500 SLT 4x4 5.7 A8 Hemi 2007 Hummer H3 3.7 liter turd 2019 Chevy Spark petrol car 38 mpg |
#7
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Cliff did your customer tell you were Hy-lift sources their lifter bodies from? The USA foundry that cast them closed its door about two years ago. Causing the great lifter shortage of the 21st Century.
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#8
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So is Johnson false advertising here with their Made in the USA claims?
https://johnsonlifters.com/Home.aspx
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Red\black 65 Grand Prix 467 E-head stroker, Viper T-56 6-speed, 4.10 spool |
#9
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Last I knew Hylift Johnson-Topline (HLJ) is working with a Foundry in Cleveland, Ohio, the switch took place in that 20’ time line Paul listed.
Johnson (not HLJ) quit making flat tappet lifters several year ago. I am pretty sure all Johnson machining is there in Michigan. I have seen different reports that the lifter bodies may be off shore..fwiw To my knowledge HLJ has not been making the HR lifters for a few years for at least Pontiacs. I have know idea what their plans are for them. I have not heard of them making HR’s for any engine though for awhile, they have been out of stock. The S lifter that was mentioned was a HR lifter made by HLJ. Every dyno pull I have seen from them they did great until they hit the rpm ceiling for what their plunger’s were good for, then the power goes south like any other HR lifter other than a very short travel set up. HLJ made some S lifters in flat tappets for other brands, I have never seen it offered for Pontiac. Would be AWESOME if they did. |
#10
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Quote:
Some states allow "Made In USA" claims if the part is simply modified or assembled in some way in the state, even though the main body can come from China. Other states only allow the "Made In USA" claim if the entire part from start to finish is done in the USA. The same thing happens with cylinder heads. Many of them are cast in China now (Except Brodix that I'm aware of) But since machine work is done here in the states by most other head manufactures, as long as they live in one of those lenient states, they can claim "Made In The USA" |
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#11
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Quote:
Under its general authority to act against deceptive acts and practices, the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) controls ‘Made in America’, ‘Made in the USA’, or any claims of U.S. origin for all products sold or advertised in the United States. The FTC Act, § 45a Labels on products, states that a product advertised or offered for sale with a ‘Made in USA’, “Made in America’, or equivalent label must have domestic origins that are consistent with orders and decision of the FTC. FTC has provided a policy statement requiring that ‘all or virtually all’ of a product be made in the United States to make the unqualified claim. Any product labeled with an unqualified ‘Made in the USA’ claim or similar must be able to have that claim substantiated. As with gov. regulations there are always exceptions: If the U.S. Custom Service determines that a good is not of foreign origin (i.e., the good undergoes its last substantial transformation in the United States) there is no requirement for labeling with the country of origin. All of the mumbo jumbo at https://www.nist.gov/standardsgov/co...-faqs-made-usa Last edited by 64-3Deuces; 11-14-2022 at 09:46 PM. |
#12
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Quote:
This quote explaining what they take into consideration to claim "made in the USA" is most telling, which applies to most of the overseas parts that are cast and then finished here. "Foreign content incorporated early in the manufacturing process will often be less significant than content that is a direct part of the finished product." How it also states automobiles are not addressed here. Wish it went into more detail there. USA made just doesn't mean what it used to. |
#13
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To Formulajones,
Yep, terms like "virtually all" and "substantial" are pretty much wide open terms. I used to work for the government and if you asked two people to define "virtually all" you would get three different definitions and maybe more!... Almost everything I buy in some manner says Made in the USA with globally sourced materials. You're correct--USA made just doesn't mean what it used to. |
#14
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My source claims that Johnson is using offshore components and that he has tested them for leak down rates and they are all over the place. He also mentioned "re-boxing", but that for sure is at attempt at fraud or missleading the customer base into thinking you are buying a better product, etc. Even with that said it's not the first time I've heard about USA companies reboxing offshore parts, or folks making offshore parts putting them in USA labeled boxes.
All rumor for sure, but hardly a day goes by here that I don't get an email or phone call from someone who lost a cam, or has issues with "noise" on a fresh rebuild, etc. No mention of where Topline is sources of getting the lifter "bodies" from. I don't consider any of this info gospel, but you have to pocket it away and if nothing else make sure you get good lifters for your next engine project. I'd also add here that before Topline went out of business the first time we NEVER had any issues with cam lobes failing or any other problems in that area, including noise, etc. No "special" lubricants added to the oil, or break-in procedures needed, etc. Just fuel the carb, static time the distributor, fire them up and a few minutes around 1500rpms or so and good to go for the life of the engine. Since the trace minerals were left out of lube oil (not an issue IMHO), and lifters sourced out from who knows where, plus the trend for "aggressive" lobe profiles, stiff valve springs, etc we've seen nothing but issues with these things. That's reality, and this thread may or may not help.......
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If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read this in English, thank a Veteran! https://cliffshighperformance.com/ 73 Ventura, SOLD 455, 3740lbs, 11.30's at 120mph, 1977 Pontiac Q-jet, HO intake, HEI, 10" converter, 3.42 gears, DOT's, 7.20's at 96mph and still WAY under the roll bar rule. Best ET to date 7.18 at 97MPH (1/8th mile), |
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#15
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Johnson only makes roller lifters now.Tom
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#16
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At least for now, it seems like it may be more what is available than anything else. I initially had a set of Morels for my motor but that was because I couldn't find anything else. Those had lots of negative reviews so I kept looking and eventually Butler had the Johnson reduced travel lifters available so I grabbed a set of those and sent the Morels back. The Johnsons are in the motor so we'll see. I will say they are very quiet, whatever that's worth. Standing right next to the motor on the dyno, really no lifter noise at all.
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70 TA, 467 cid IAII, Edelbrock D-port heads, 9.94:1, Butler HR 236/242 @ .050, 520/540 lift, 112 LSA, Ray Klemm calibrated Q-jet, TKX (2.87 1st/.81 OD), 3.31 rear https://youtube.com/shorts/gG15nb4FWeo?feature=share |
#17
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"Other states only allow the "Made In USA" claim if the entire part from start to finish is done in the USA."
How about "made in the USA from globally sources materials/components".....does that count? How about "Country of Origin on box".......and they list about a dozen companies on one of the folds of the packaging when you open them up. Anyone remember when TRW starting doing that with engine rebuild components?......
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If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read this in English, thank a Veteran! https://cliffshighperformance.com/ 73 Ventura, SOLD 455, 3740lbs, 11.30's at 120mph, 1977 Pontiac Q-jet, HO intake, HEI, 10" converter, 3.42 gears, DOT's, 7.20's at 96mph and still WAY under the roll bar rule. Best ET to date 7.18 at 97MPH (1/8th mile), |
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#18
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Quote:
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#19
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Don't know much about this but Scat got a big fine for advertising their crankshafts are made in the USA, because they were only machined here. Around the same time our Government gave CAT a free pass, letting them copy Scat's product line, catalog and part numbers even though Scat complained.... Fwiw, info from one of the previous owners of Scat.
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#20
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Quote:
Been a long while since I was reading about this stuff, I can't remember exactly which states had what but I think California was one of the states that don't allow "Made In USA" claims unless it's all manufactured in that state. |
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