[69Ragtop]

I'm looking for some advise/guidance. My harmonic balancer doesn't seem to be in all the way and is throwing my crank pulley and the water pump pulley out of alignment by about 3/16". I can see the balancer seated against the crank gear, it cannot go any farther. Are the balancers all the same? I ask that because the machine shop could have given me someone elses. Could it be the crank gear? It is new so it has been changed. It just looks like the balancer should be up under the edge of the timing marks on the front cover. Should I shim the water pump pulley out and move on? Here's a couple of pictures that should give an idea what I'm looking at. Thanks in advance.

[tom s]

If you have the proper TQ im sure it is in the proper position.It bottoms against the bottom timing gear.Tom

[400 Lemans]

In the second picture it looks almost like the reinforcing ring is installed behind the crank pulley. It should be on the front under bolt heads.

[STEELCITYFIREBIRD]

Originally Posted by 400 Lemans

In the second picture it looks almost like the reinforcing ring is installed behind the crank pulley. It should be on the front under bolt heads.

It does.^^

If not, I recall reading that later model cranks have a large radius or step of some sort where the lower timing gear meets the crank. Someone help me out here to verify this.
Is it possible the lower timing gear is on backwards or possibly it does not have a chamfer in it to clear that large radius/step? The check would be to verify lower timing gear is against the crank on the vertical front surface.

[Scott Thelander]

we need some pulley numbers of yours.

also what year p/s pump n pulley are you running ...

a/c ??

it looks like a 73 n newer timing cover w 4.5" water pump

Scott

[PontGuy]

I just compared the picture to my car and going by the timing pointers it looks to me like your balancer is seated correctly. So my guess is something with the pulley is not quite right. My car has an AC pulley too so I can't do a good comparison.

[69Ragtop]

The pulleys are on temporarily just to check the alignment and the reinforcement ring is not on yet,
The lower timing gear I think will go only one way because of the taper on the front side.
I'll get the pulley numbers tomorrow, can't get to them at the moment. The power steering pump and pulley are 1969 and no ac. I was hoping that I could leave off the extra crank pulley for the ac and be good. The motor is a 1973.
Before the rebuild the balancer was far enough back that it was under the edge of the timing pointer and that is the exact amount that would make the pulleys line up perfect.

[sts]

What about OP's complaint about the air gap between blancer and indicator? My balancer sits flush with the indicator. I was positive it did; still, I ran downstairs and took a look. Taking a picture and posting it only verifies I told you so.

Rather than a picture fest, everyone could look at their indicator-balancer relation and report. Mine: 69 350 components on a 68 YS block.

[sts]

Whoops Pontguy. I didn't see your report. So what'sup with that? Posting a picture locks in the debate, not solving a thing. Need more reports.

[PontGuy]

Originally Posted by sts

Whoops Pontguy. I didn't see your report. So what'sup with that? Posting a picture locks in the debate, not solving a thing. Need more reports.

I can post a pic of mine but it looks just like his, the edge of my balancer is a little away from the pointer tips. 1970 455, using original 1969 350 pulleys with AC. Lines up perfectly.

['ol Pinion head]

Originally Posted by 69Ragtop

The pulleys are on temporarily just to check the alignment and the reinforcement ring is not on yet,
The lower timing gear I think will go only one way because of the taper on the front side.
I'll get the pulley numbers tomorrow, can't get to them at the moment. The power steering pump and pulley are 1969 and no ac. I was hoping that I could leave off the extra crank pulley for the ac and be good. The motor is a 1973.
Before the rebuild the balancer was far enough back that it was under the edge of the timing pointer and that is the exact amount that would make the pulleys line up perfect.

you can run a '68-70 2 groove crank pulley from a factory AC car, an "842", but it is best to run a round reinforcement plate behind the "842" pulley as the round plate takes up the space of a one groove AC pulley, the "843".

This style PS pump & pulley & alum mtg bracket, needs to be run with either a "128" or "130" AC diam water pump pulley. Any others won't line up! As far as the damper not sliding on, it's a good possibility the timing chain sprocket on the crank was put on backwards. Have never ran across that, but can't think of any reason the damper would not slide back correctly, unless something (the crank sprocket) was not far enough back. of course, that makes me think there is no way the timing chain set could be attached to allow that...

[69Ragtop]

Just got the numbers off of the pulleys. The water pump pulley is 481040X1 with an S on the apposite side and the crank pulley is 9790846 YA
I guess my biggest worry is the balancer not up under the edge of the timing pointer. I looked at a couple of other Pontiac motors today and they are all up under the edge of the pointers and that is the exact amount that I need to be lined up perfect. As much as I hate to it is starting to look like the timing cover is going to have to come back off.

[unclescratch]

There is definitely something to the fit of the balancer to the timing gear/crankshaft snout !! Years ago I torqued a balancer to spec and got a large BANG !! Wish I could remember better, but I certainly remember the BANG ! and parts breakage. This was a case where a balancer from another Pontiac V-8 was installed onto a 400CI motor and maybe the crank snout had a step to it ???

[STEELCITYFIREBIRD]

Originally Posted by 69Ragtop

Just got the numbers off of the pulleys. The water pump pulley is 481040X1 with an S on the apposite side and the crank pulley is 9790846 YA
I guess my biggest worry is the balancer not up under the edge of the timing pointer. I looked at a couple of other Pontiac motors today and they are all up under the edge of the pointers and that is the exact amount that I need to be lined up perfect. As much as I hate to it is starting to look like the timing cover is going to have to come back off.

I went out to the shop to have a look. You should be able to see if the lower timing gear is all the way butted up to the crank thru the fuel pump mount hole easily.

The lower gear is usually chamferd on one side and flat on the other. I put my balancer and cover on and my balancer seems to sit slightly closer to timing marks than what your picture shows. Could be image angle of incidence.
Chamferd end goes towards back of engine, easily seen if you only take balancer off.

You are working with the one yeer queer short water pump length stuff here too. The timing cover looks to be a later than a '69 . The lower is a 69 pulley the upper is a 70+, #481040XT. Irrelevant, your trouble is in the balancer depth it seems.

[Scott Thelander]

I had a feeling of ... the crank key has a burr?

if the lower gear was backwards wouldnt that jack the chain crooked ?

chain looks ok in the picture

got the right fat washer under the bolt ?

I dont think that water pump pulley will line up after you get the
balancer figured out ... its your 73ish one and the power steering being'
a 69 as you mentioned with a 9786900 or 9786901 w ac ...
I dont think they line up ...

balancer first ...

Scott

[tom s]

I think the bottom sprocket only has the dot on the outside?Would be hard to line up backwards?Tom

[STEELCITYFIREBIRD]

I was able to put the gear on either way and offset appears the same on dual row chain set, don't recall brand.

I agree it would seem hard to put on backwards and align intentionally. HTH

Did you degree the cam in?
..BTW I have a 69 balancer/crank and cover with all 76 w/AC pulleys.... yet to be assembled and proven to work together

[69Ragtop]

Originally Posted by tom s

I think the bottom sprocket only has the dot on the outside?Would be hard to line up backwards?Tom

I had forgotten about the dot. It is only on one side.

I guess the balancer will be coming back off. Maybe I can take it up to one of the parts houses to compare the depth to a new one.

The thing is, I know that before tear down, it was up under the edge of the timing marks. I know that the crank gear is new, so that has changed. I'm not sure that the balancer is my original that I dropped off, could be someone else. There has to be an issue between the two is what I'm thinking.

['ol Pinion head]

Originally Posted by 69Ragtop

Just got the numbers off of the pulleys. The water pump pulley is 481040X1 with an S on the apposite side and the crank pulley is 9790846 YA
I guess my biggest worry is the balancer not up under the edge of the timing pointer. I looked at a couple of other Pontiac motors today and they are all up under the edge of the pointers and that is the exact amount that I need to be lined up perfect. As much as I hate to it is starting to look like the timing cover is going to have to come back off.

Once you get the damper to properly seat, run the "846" non AC crank pulley along with a "127" WP pulley & the tall 11 bolt WP, & the belt grooves will line up with your current PS setup. The 481040 WP pulley is not 1970 & later useage, but 1971 & later, only. The 481040 & 481038 pulleys have to be used with '71 & later brackets & PS pump. Have a 55 gal drum 3/4 full of these '71 up AC application pulleys.

[Tom Vaught]

Take it apart and look at things again for assembly.

If you have timed the engine a few times, you remember stuff like the position of the degree wheel vs the timing plate.

Tom V.