[GRIM64]

Ok, brand new here (yes I joined a long time ago when I nearly acquired a '64 but that fell through) and after reading a lot of threads I think I'd like to ask you all for advice on a motor build. I'm new to a lot of the terminology so if I don't have the correct name for something then bear with me.
I've got a '69 GTO that's being restored and when the hood is popped I'd like the motor to retain a stock appearance but with internal upgrades and more torque. It's not a race car but a street car and I'll be doing a Route 66 trip (with my family )with it in the summer of 2015 with a couple of trips to the drag strip in its lifetime to get a time slip or two for the glovebox. I'd like a motor that will be fun to drive and really put you in your seat with lots of torque.

Where do I need to spend my $ and what is a waste...

I'd like the CR to be 9.0 - 9.5:1 ( pump gas friendly)
400 block (one cylinder sleeved) bored .035 over, 2 bolt caps with ARP studs
Butler 461 stroker kit
#62 heads
Comp cams XR276HR hyd roller cam
Stock iron intake manifold
Rochester carb set to flow 750-800 cfm
Cast iron "Rams head style" exhaust manifolds (I like the old school appearance of them over headers)
Rear diff geared in the neighborhood of 3.70 something and posi
Tremec 5 speed for lower rpm on the highway

This is where I'm currently at in my mind (and through talking to some folks) and am wide open to suggestions in any of the above selections but remember stock appearance is important to me but I'm not going to race it in F.A.S.T.

Here are the things that I'd like to know.

1. Can I use the stock manifold (with mild porting to clean it up) with this combo and not restrict the torque too much?

2. Iron head work will be: clean up the runners, port match, and light bowl work.

3. What roller rockers, springs, valves & pushrods should I use with this build?

4. Who should I send the carb to? The Carb Shop? Cliffs HP in Ohio?

5. What ignition system?

6. What brand of water pump?

7. What brand of oil pump?

I know these are wide open questions but I'm wanting to do it right once and you guys have already been there & done that.

Thanks & I look forward to contributing over the years.

[Cliff R]

You'll find plenty of help here.

This sort of thing is what I do for a living, so I'll put in my 02 worth.

The factory intake is PLENTY for what you are doing. I'd go with a 68-72 and avoid the later EGR versions. Aside from being a tad heavy, they will easily support the power level of your stroked 400.

62 heads are excellent, no mention as to who's doing the work, but 230cfm is within easy reach if the person preparing them knows what they are doing.

I'd use a 1969 or later Pontiac q-jet, the 1976 to 1979 units being the very best, but any of them are plenty of carb for what you are doing.

I don't like the cam choice, and yes I know that cam is somewhat popular. I've had several 455 in here to tune using it, and at 9.5 to 1 compression it's just WAY too good at cylinder filling in the lower rpm range. This makes these engines prone to pinging on pump fuel. I'd go just a tad bigger with the duration, and wider LSA.

Stock ignition is fine, HEI would be my first choice, but a period correct points unit will do the job if set up exactly for the application, most prefer to convert them to electronic, which I also recommend.

We build several Pontiac engines every year here in the shop, already on our second one this year, most are stroked 400's, usually set up for folks wanting the stock look under the hood, but a lot more power available than the original 400 was capable of.

I do the same thing with my own engine, stock valve covers, stock intake, stock Shaker assembly, carb, HEI, etc, all set up to make great power, but still having nice street manners, manage pump fuel, and no running hot/overheating/detonation in any conditions.

Here's a clip of my car at the track, notice the smooth idle at 750rpm's in and out of gear. I actually "de-tune" it slightly to stay roll bar legal, even in the hot-humid August weather I made that run in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zVdoLR-VzM

Hope this helps some.....Cliff

[GRIM64]

Heads will be done either by "Heads by Drew" in Denver or by the fellow doing the engine build, Dan.

I've saw a fellow mention doing their own porting work and said they referenced a book as to how it's recommended to be done on a Pontiac head. Is there a template/guide that is available to check where & how much to remove when porting for a street build?

The intake manifold that I have is a 1969, as is the carb.

[72LuxuryLeMansLa.]

I'm no expert like Cliff but I'll give you a couple of links to look at where you can get parts:

Cam- Stump Puller: http://sdperformance.com/viewProduct.php?productID=1815
Sd Performance spec'd this cam for exactly what you are doing. Check with them on how to set up the heads also. The best way to contact Dave is through his email at the website; he will go out of his way to help you with this.

Exhaust Manifolds, Ram Air Style: http://www.ramairrestoration.com/pon...oversized.html

I'm going to also use the MSD RTR distributor with the Blaster 2 high vibration coil. You can get them in Black and to the untrained eye it will look like the stock type ignition.
Distributor: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ms...w/make/pontiac
Coil: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/msd-8222/overview/

[tom s]

I just did close to the same.Took a 69 WS 400 engine and put a 3in main 4.21 Ohio crank in it with Ross dished pistons and Scat H beam rods.9.5 CR.I used a stock set of 48 heads and stock 69 intake with a OJ carb with a 69 dist with a pertronic conversion.H&S roller rockers, Comp hyd roller and lifters.Will need to get back to you as I cant remember the cam.I know its one cliff is not fond of but I already owned it.Fired it yesterday,sounds great,should have it on the road this week.Good luck with your project.Tom

[GRIM64]

Originally Posted by tom s

I just did close to the same.Took a 69 WS 400 engine and put a 3in main 4.21 Ohio crank in it with Ross dished pistons and Scat H beam rods.9.5 CR.I used a stock set of 48 heads and stock 69 intake with a OJ carb with a 69 dist with a pertronic conversion.H&S roller rockers, Comp hyd roller and lifters.Will need to get back to you as I cant remember the cam.I know its one cliff is not fond of but I already owned it.Fired it yesterday,sounds great,should have it on the road this week.Good luck with your project.Tom

I will be VERY interested in how yours is working out, that is pretty much spot on for what I'll be putting together. Any chance that you will be dynoing your car? I'd like to see that torque curve for reference. Thanks!

[tom s]

The engine made 447 HP and 505 TQ with no tuning.Just put it on the dyno to break it in and check for leaks.No head porting or intake mods at all.It is a 455.

[GRIM64]

Originally Posted by tom s

The engine made 447 HP and 505 TQ with no tuning.Just put it on the dyno to break it in and check for leaks.No head porting or intake mods at all.It is a 455.

Nice! That's what I'm looking for! Thanks.

[grivera]

Originally Posted by tom s

The engine made 447 HP and 505 TQ with no tuning.Just put it on the dyno to break it in and check for leaks.No head porting or intake mods at all.It is a 455.

That's pretty impressive. What's the torque curve and peak up?

[grivera]

Originally Posted by tom s

The engine made 447 HP and 505 TQ with no tuning.Just put it on the dyno to break it in and check for leaks.No head porting or intake mods at all.It is a 455.

That's pretty impressive. What's the torque curve and peak up?

[grivera]

Sorry for the double post, I meant to ask what rpm is peak hp?

[tom s]

Peak HP was 5600

[tom s]

peak TQ was 3300.Tom

[ponjohn]

My old combo-

463
9.25-1
cleaned up 96 d-ports
rpm
holley 850
xe284 flat tappet ( there are better cam choices)valve springs were tested at a later date and proven to be too weak for that cam.

450hp @4700 / 532 @ 3300

car went 11.98 @ 109.5 @ 3680 (with a 1.6xx 60 ft) with tongue hanging out at 1000 feet

[Cliff R]

Some food for thought here. Not trying to rain on any ones parade, or put a big black cloud over it, etc. It's obviously been a long/cold Winter, and the very worst from folks has been showing up on here in the past couple of weeks. Anyhow, here are some comments directly related to this particular topic:

The peak torque to peak HP spread is nearly 1000rpm's wider than what we typically see with these engines.

Any time I've ever witnessed a dyno run where peak torque occurred that early, the engine was done much earlier for peak HP. I would also add that we do NOT want peak torque occurring early. This INCREASES the potential for detonation, as cylinder filling is most efficient at that point. This is why I do NOT like that particular camshaft. The last 455 I tuned that used it POUNDED like sledgehammers starting around 3200rpms with a "normal" tune in it.

The peak torque number is also considerably low for the HP production, which really isn't a big deal, but I'd imagine average power is down some as well. Most similar engines we get involved with will make over 530 peak torque with flat cams, and some have made over 550ft lbs with roller cams. They will also have over 500ft lbs available thru most of the useable rpm range. The closest engine build I have to compare was a 455 with unported #46 heads from a 1974 350 engine, opened up for 2.11/1.77 valves. Not even port matched, and untouched stock intake. Using a Crower 60919 flat cam it made 440hp/528tq. Peak torque at 3800rpm's, peak hp at 5400rpm's. My own 455 with 232cfm 6X-4 heads and the same parts otherwise made 455hp/540tq.

I would also mention that without any exceptions, all engines we've built and dyno'd with HR camshafts made pretty high torque numbers compared to similar size flat cams. This is simply a bi-product of the roller lobes providing a larger window of opportunity to move air without having to have more duration (shorter seat timing/less overlap). We also use wider LSA's than the XE276 grind......Cliff