[92GTA]

I received my PHS packet on my 1969 Firebird.

Going through it I notice it only breaks down 1969 Firebird production numbers into coupes and 'verts. Then it only brakes down the total number of L67 and L74 engine options - although it does say how many L74s were 'verts. But that's it (aside from total # Trans Ams as well)

If that is as close as one can get to knowing how many of a given optioned car was produced, why do I see "experts" on YouTube saying they know how many L67 GTOs were convertibles + got the Judge package + how many of those got a 4-speed, etc? Or X number of 69 Trans Ams were RAIV and X of those had manuals, etc. From what I see PHS only gives the total number of Trans Ams and does not break it down any further.

It's clear PHS doesn't know how many 1969 Firebirds were 350 + auto + whatever whatever. Where are these people sourcing their numbers?

Are they going by known reported combinations that are in a registry somewhere, or did Pontiac keep better track of option combination production numbers on higher-end variants like the GTO and the Trans Am, etc and PHS just doesn't know or report this info or what? What am I missing here lol.

Just curious. Thanks!

Alex

[70oldgoat]

Originally Posted by 92GTA

...why do I see "experts" ... saying they know how many L67 GTOs were convertibles + got the Judge package + how many of those got a 4-speed, etc? Or X number of 69 Trans Ams were RAIV and X of those had manuals, etc. (?)

...Where are these people sourcing their numbers?

Alex

X2 on the question.

In my case, I am rebuilding a Granada Gold Met. 70 GTO convertible that has a factory orig. 3 speed MT.

I found the "reported" number of 70 GTO convertibles that were built with MTs (887), but the next step would be to determine out of the 887 what was the number of MTs built that were standard 3 speed MT in a Granada Gold Met. car.

Basically looking for the same answer to the original post, "Where are these people sourcing their numbers?"

Thanks.

[johnta1]

Probably most were sourced from Fred Simmonds who worked for Pontiac.

He spent a lot of time researching info on cars, especially high performance ones, like the TA.
That is why they know the RA IV TA's.
(he did a lot of other models like GTO's etc also)



There are a few of his sheets on PY here.
Try a search for production records or something.

[92GTA]

Got it, I'll try and find what info is posted from him on 1969 Firebird production.

Also, why are there no press photos or anything in the PHS packet? Do they not have that for 1969? Plenty of other cars I've owned and gotten packets for in the past came with allot more cool stuff...

[Held for Ransom]

The press photos and other papers were provided by Pontiac relations and ceased when Pontiac died.

John, I thought I E-mailed you those sheets I had 10 years ago.
They were the OHC-6, Trans Am and another (I think RA).

[johnta1]

Yes, Mike I have them somewhere.
(buried in thousands of pics on hard drive)



Here is a link of the data in a web page:

67-69 Bird



Also have a list of the RA IV Birds.
And probably RA I & II stuff.

[John V.]

AFAIK, PMD did record sales broken down to the option level at least to some degree. This was useful data for them to determine year to year what models to kill, what options to quit offering, what colors were popular or not. For example, you can be pretty sure that PMD quit offering the 4 bbl 350 engine option for the A and F body after '69 because it simply wasn't very popular among buyers.

But very few of these records are known to exist. I agree, most of the detailed records were determined by Fred Simmonds by gleaning data document by document in the days before PMD tossed the records and PHS got hold of them, literally out of the dumpster from the story I've heard told. That is why the list of RAIV VINs are known for example.

Because I was fascinated by the '69 Firebird, for a few years I logged VINs for them, mainly established the approximate VIN range for the V8s and the separate OHC6s for each of the 3 Plants that produced them that year and the start and end time by Time Built code for each Plant. I logged colors when I could see the Data Plate or Invoice record but never tried to do more with the data than that.

But I can tell you my own opinion that every build was 1 of 1 if you broke it down far enough.

Figure that no single body color (I believe there were about 20 standard colors offered for '69) represented more than about 15% of production. Divide them by coupe and convertible, interior color, trans type and engine. And before you know it, you will soon realize that it is about impossible to find 2 '69 Firebirds built at about the same time at the same Plant with the same exterior, interior, drivetrain, and option combination. Why does Time Built matter? Because there were running changes during the Model Year.

So if it floats your boat, you can safely say your '69 Firebird was a unique 1 of 1 build even if it is a coupe with the most common drivetrain choice. The same would be true of every GM model, perhaps with the exception of a late '60s Impala, the no. 1 volume seller.

Cadillac once bragged in the '60s that given their broad range of options and at their fairly low production nos., they could go 3 YEARS without producing 2 identical cars.

Various Pontiac reference books are probably the source of the breakdown for Judges, TAs, RAIVs, etc. And these totals were probably the original work of Fred Simmonds' research. Somewhere I have some good breakdowns for the '72 Model Year IIRC. I think that was from actual PMD tabulations for the Model Year. The Camaro Research Group has official production breakdowns by Model Year and by option for the '67-'69 Camaros. Lucky them. But I think the quantities are for individual options, no way to know how many cars were equipped with a specific combination of options (but then I already claimed that no two builds were equipped the same for any GM model!).

I doubt you will find the no. of Starlight Black '69 Firebird Coupes with the 2 bbl 350 and the M31 2 spd auto trans equipped with AM radio/manual antenna, console, deluxe wheel covers, electric clock, tilt wheel, PS, and Custom knit vinyl Black interior in any tabulation. You can take my word on it, if you do come across one built at the Lordstown Plant, you most likely would never find a 2nd one from the Lordstown Plant. And if you happen to find one from Lordstown and one from Norwood, the Norwood build would have occurred after the mid March decontenting was announced while the Lordstown build would have predated that announcement, so still different.

You should try posting in the '67-'69 Firebird forum, I bet the guys there will be able to tell you what reference books have the best tabulations.

Here is one breakdown I found on line, same site John pointed to. Don't know how accurate it is or where they obtained the nos. Note the OHC 6 engine totals combine Tempest and Firebird, I guess they shared engine codes, the V8 engine codes were not shared in '69.

http://www.transamworld.com/69-bird-prod-numbers.php

I got a PHS packet soon after they went into business and received a publicity photo and a Press Release related to the announcement of the production of my model, original AMA Specs, plus some then new Pontiac literature. Not sure if they include all of that today (obviously no new Pontiac sales lit).

[Held for Ransom]

http://www.forums.maxperformanceinc....d.php?t=438968

Looks like we've had the engine info posted since '05.

[Simple Man]

Also, you have to take some of the YouTubers with a grain of salt. Many are clueless when it comes to facts about their cars, or similar ones. It sounds good to say their 71 Firebird is one of one, because the door threshold screws are 5/8' long.

[Diego]

I've made several visits to the GM Heritage Center and have been compiling Pontiac production in a spreadsheet little by little. Some info exists, other is missing. I've seen some things that Fred referenced, while some other stuff I have yet to discover.

I couldn't find reference to a 3-speed GTO ragtop but I wouldn't be surprised if it was less than 100 (96 out of 2933 1970 Olds 4-4-2 ragtops had the 3-speed, FWIW).

Any other numbers you want to know, just try me here.

[92GTA]

Thanks for the info guys. I only asked because I was genuinely curious what the source was for further production break downs, or if people were just making this stuff up lol.

I know my car is a dime a dozen, but would be cool to know how many in a given color with a given drivetrain. No need to ever break it down more than that on a car this common in my opinion.

[Diego]

What do you want to know about 1969 Firebirds?

[Simple Man]

Originally Posted by Diego

I've made several visits to the GM Heritage Center and have been compiling Pontiac production in a spreadsheet little by little. Some info exists, other is missing. I've seen some things that Fred referenced, while some other stuff I have yet to discover.

I couldn't find reference to a 3-speed GTO ragtop but I wouldn't be surprised if it was less than 100 (96 out of 2933 1970 Olds 4-4-2 ragtops had the 3-speed, FWIW).

Any other numbers you want to know, just try me here.

Guy across the street from my brothers old house has one, 70 442 ragtop, with the factory 3 speed.