[TRADERMIKE 2012]

First of all, thank you for your help, I have read 75% of the Articles you provided in the past and I welcome the reminder of the others. I am reading all you sent again as not to miss out. Here is what I find:



Mikes Rebuttal: "A backwards swap to multiple carburetion and an earlier camshaft were

never a part of any "Royal Bobcat Package." Mike Answer: How do you know that is a fact, prove it?
A Tri-Power has 6 bbl and a 4 bbl well has 4 . A Dual 4 bbl has 8 bbl. I say a

Tri-Power is an upgrade over a 4 bbl as long as were talking the same CFM. The Dual 4

bbl likewise is an upgrade over the Tri-Power with its 8 bbl all being or close in

the air or CFM they move through the pump. This analogy is for all Carbs. systems

being tested on the same motor. The Tri-Power not being on the Royal Pontiac list does

not mean they were not installed on GTO and Firebirds or Big Pontiacs at Royal. I bet

there are more Tri-Power set-ups on GTO's and Firebirds and Hot Rods Today than 4bbl

and that is a guess. Now, let's talk about that early Cam Shaft # 524886 is the only Cam

Shaft for the Tri-Power specially designated so, it must have been tested on the GM

proving grounds to carry that distinction. People speak about Cams being small or big. I

say it is a key to the Engine and there is only one key that works the best and when

you spend your life finding that one key you stick with it for the Engines life.

I have this to say my Father Raced Gym - Conna around Pylons in an obstacle course on Long Island and he might have had

his 1966 and 1968 Corvette Blue Printed and Balanced at Balwin Chevrolet, I never

asked and he never said so. He bought those Vehicles and they were 500 HP each. Now, I

can't prove he had the work done at Baldwin but he worked close to them, so I might

Speculate that is where he had the work done. He Raced at Mitchel field in Nassa and

worked in Mineola. What kind of work they did at Baldwin, I don't no. Point is who is

alive to say what went on in the Royal Pontiac Walls or Baldwin. Most likely they

worked with what was available to them in there day.




You say:
"Performance upgrades are intended to improve performance, not lessen it and while

both pieces you possess are nice nostalgia parts, they would not have been considered

Performance upgrades by a shop as sophisticated as Royal Pontiac."

Mike Answer:
Was Royal Pontiac more sophisticated than Baldwin or Dana or Motion or simply the

leader in the field. In 1967 Pontiac Matched the 4 bbl carb. to the best cam for the

weight of the Vehicle. Tri-Power is an upgrade and the Cam that joins it are mated

like a hand and a glove.

Here, is a quote from what you had me read "Royal does not change the stock 4-bbl. carburetor to anything more exotic, but it, too, is modified to make it more workable."


Now, ask yourself "What is more exotic than Tri-Power Carbs. in those days?"



You Say

"Whether these engines would have been VIN. stamped for the cars that received them is doubtful as they already carried an SR designation and identifiable as "not original" to the car.

Well, there goes the Brand-New Factory Warrantee out the window. The fact of bringing a brand new Vehicle to a Dealership to have Dealership stand behind the Factory and

Vica Versa. Who could afford that, I couldn't?




You Say
"According to the following article, the only engine-less cars shipped too Royal

Pontiac were the 428 CID RA V GTO Bobcat. They were not consigned but sold directly to

Royal as original owner and came less engine along with an ala carte 428 RA V crate

engine".
Mikes Answer:
"According to the following article, that contains what the Auther is telling us only."

If that were the case the owner is purchasing a used car. Second hand de-valued

Vehicle, I doubt that. Your making payments on a used car, think about what your

saying. The man Writing the Article is always right ...Please. Consider this, there were very few Ram Air 5 and men like Micky Thompson received one or 2 maybe, Only the wealthy could afford Ram Air 5 and Business owner Racers who can write off the Race expenses purchased Ram Air 5 in the first place." The 400,303,428 and 455 Ram Air 5-6-7 etc... were never produced or homologated so let's leave them out.

Homologated 428 ci Pontiac motors are what I am thinking went into the Royal Pontiacs as the upgrade. Now, Royal could have installed Tri-power carbs. and Intakes on the 428 ci with the Cam Shaft # 524886 that mates to Tri-Powers as their upgrade in there day.

In my case that being the case is somewhat obscure in that I mean it is unlikely that my Engine went into Royal Pontiac to be installed as an upgrade in a Vehicle. When I through that out to the forum it created one long conversation write, Pissed off a few and stifled others. All I was saying is what if....

You Say "In any case, a Tri-Power retrofit does not appear to have been a part of the "Bobcat

Package" for a 400 or 428.

Mikes Answer to this: Royal Pontiac Specifically removed the old used 400 ci and 389 according to the 3-4 articles you had me read.

"FOR A MERE $650, EXCHANGE, ROYAL WILL SNAKE OUT THAT OVERWORKED LITTLE ENGINE IN YOUR GTO AND SLIDE IN THE 428, ALL PREPARED FOR ACTION.

"A GTO with the standard, puny, 400 cu. in. V-8 re*moved and the full, top-of-the-line 428-incher inserted—with enough fiddling in*side the replacement engine to bump the output up some unspecified but appreciable margin above the rated 390 horsepower. All this in a car weighing some several hundreds of pounds less than that from whence the 428 engine was borrowed."

"The 428 is a direct bolt-in replacement for the new 400, or the older 389."

Above statements came from your articles:

You Say:
"Under NHRA C/Stock rules, an earlier Tri-Power installation would have been

disallowed along with the 428 CID transplant as neither would have met the showroom

stock criteria of the NHRA nor does it appear to have been a part of any documented

Royal Bobcat package".



Mikes answer to this: What year are you referring to in this statement: "Under NHRA C/Stock rules".

Something to consider is that some people went in for mods to their Vehicles for street use. What about prior to 1967 when the Catalina used the 421 ci for example. what class was it in anyway? It used Tri-Power. Some of the cars used Dual 4 bbl Carbs. also. Since the 428 is only available from 1967 - 69 and the Tri-Power was on 1966 and before the racers were not constricted to GM policy. I have no Knowledge of Race Rules in those days.




MIKE READ THIS IN THE ARTICAL:

"Royal Pontiac’s expertise and success was so respected that John DeLorean made

certain that all press cars released by Pontiac were Royal Bobcat-prepped cars. The

most renowned of these press cars was a “ringer” 1964 GTO test car, prepped for a

March 1964 Car and Driver article in which it went head-to-head with a Ferrari GTO.

This car had a Royal Pontiac-prepped 421-cubic-inch tri-power engine that out-ran the

Italian supercar in a 0–100 mph sprint. Because Pontiac V-8 engines are externally

the same, no one even noticed that the engine in the test car wasn’t actually a 389.

Throughout the ’60s, similar swaps would be a trademark of Royal Pontiac team."
Mike Said:
THUS, MY FRIENDS PROVES WHAT? 1) similar swaps would be a trademark of Royal Pontiac team.

Mike Answer to this: If Royal Pontiac did this what else don't we know about. So Royal Pontiac could have Installed a Pontiac 428 ci Homologated Engine swap into a customer car and then why not mine and even though the Car is gone the Engine is in my possession. MIKE READ THIS IN THE ARTICAL:
The 1966 model year proved to be the biggest sales year for the Pontiac’s GTO. As

Pontiac was gaining record sales, Royal Pontiac’s mail order sales also soared, as

more than 1000 Bobcat conversions kits were sold that year. Ace Wilson’s Royal

Pontiac had become the pioneer dealership in building “supercars” long before COPO

cars existed, and laying the path for others such as Yenko, Berger, and Grand-

Spaudling to also sell dealership-prepped performance/race vehicles. Royal had also

established itself as the first high-performance mail order dealership, creating a

business model for the infamous Baldwin Chevrolet/Motion Performance program and even current-day Chevrolet Performance Parts sealers Hendrick Chevrolet and Scoggin-Dickey Chevrolet. "The 1966 model year proved to be the biggest sales year for the Pontiac’s GTO. As

Pontiac was gaining record sales, Royal Pontiac’s mail order sales also soared, as

more than 1000 Bobcat conversions kits were sold that year."

"Mike's Answer to this: My Engine was cast in 1966 for the 1967 model year and there are only 1045 YK code Pontiac 428 ci HO Blocks manufactured in 1966.Who can say if at some time my Block was in the hands of the Infamous Royal Pontiac Crew. This is why I will ask the Question again "How did Royal Pontiac Stamp Their Blocks after they modified or upgraded them prior to installing them in a Vehicle in 1967, in my case? MIKE READ THIS IN THE ARTICAL: "Wilson also realized the best way to promote this new “Royal

Pontiac” brand was to campaign a dealership-sponsored-and-prepped race car. Late in

1959, Wilson and his crew began testing and tuning a tri-power Catalina for that

exact purpose. The S/S stock car produced 345 horsepower and was one of the first

stockers in the country to exceed 100 mph and break the 13-second ceiling in the

quarter-mile. A few months later at the 1960 Winter nationals, the “Hot Chief” from

Royal Pontiac captured everything in its class." Mikes Answer to this: Driving a what with what Carbs. is the Question? Tri-Power Catalina, had enough proof from what you gave me to read, Tri-Power Rules! You Said: "Here's a 1970 Car and Driver article describing exactly what Jerry said earlier. GM

did not allow a motor larger than 400 cid to be installed in the intermediate GTO. 428 crate motors were swapped in by Royal Pontiac which would have been SR engines

purchased from Pontiac. Whether these engines would have been VIN stamped for the

cars that received them is doubtful as they already carried an SR designation and

identifiable as not original to the car.

"Mike's Answer to this: I am going by memory but recently I read a post about Pontiac casting Blocks and then the Builders of the bare Blocks would manufacture them until a new batch of cast Blocks came in from various casting places from around the country that casted the Pontiac Blocks. So, the older Block casts sat on the shelves while the fresh ones were prioritized and completed. So, your Service Block theory may not hold up because if my memory serves me Service Blocks are over the counter to customers who claim warrantees or got stuck with a lemon. Thus, with so many Blocks in stock they can be taken off the shelves built and delivered to Royal for example without depleting the Service Block stock. So, the service Blocks may be separate, no doubt built using the Blocks "not" completed yet. Mike out.