THE new project for my '65 Bonnie: Tri-power
 

Hey everyone.
I will be receiving my '65 tripower setup today and will have to embark upon restoring it. I'd like to try to rebuild the 3 carbs myself. If it gets too impossible I could always at worst send it off to be rebuilt but I wanna have fun doing it myself so please refrain from one-line posts saying "send it to a pro" etc.

I will attach a pik of the setup below.

It hasn't been run for at the least 8 years but all butterflies move freely.


Where should I start with this one? The front and rear carbs have correct '65 casting numbers but the center carb - although it looks totally correct has a strange casting # on it from what the seller told me. I'll take a good look at it today and post exactly what the 3 #s are.


I have another manifold that is painted up nice and can sub in for this one but I'm gonna see how beat up the new manifold is when it coems in today.



I suppose step 1 is cleaning up the outsides of all this? What sorts of solvents do you all recommend? I've got a nice steam spray gun that could probably take off any excess grease, should the rest be up to carb cleaner??

I figured I'd post this here and not in the 'street' section because I wanted to make sure I heard the Full-sizers recommendations before I had to hear what the Goaters had to say ; )

Thanks all- i wanna keep you all up2date on this project the whole way thru so you all can see how great it (hopefully) turns out!


P.s. who sells the best rebuild kits? I know the carburetorshop sells some and pontiactripower.com sells some. I'm not sure of the prices of the carbshop's but I bet both are aabout the same. Anyone experience eihter of the two? (Carbking's comments welcome)

ps i know it has a '66 waterneck on it... i'll get a 65 one before build is done

Mike,

I recommend Jon Hardgrove's carb kits which will run about $90 for the three kits . I just "kitted" the GTO's trips and moved them to my 455 powered 68 GP. I also used Jon's power valve spring recalibration kit to adjust the setting for the GP's 13 inches of vacuum. Your tri-pwr reminds me of mine when I obtained over 5 years ago: complete, but really dirty.

Thanks to the EPA, the available carb cleaners due a poor job of removing accumulated varnish and corrosion. I use a combonation of green Brakekleen (spray or by the gallon) and small brass wire brushes to clean the exteriors of the castings and blow out all interior passages with compressed air. You will need a factory service manual or the printed specs that come with other carb kits for the various settings as Jon's kits do not include this info.

I used cast iron paint on the throttle bodies and left the carbs in their "as cleaned" appearance for the vintage look.

Les

Thanks for the reply. Your story gives me lots of peace of mind that it can be done and that I didn't blow a wad of cash :) on my trips.

Also GREAET to hear something come OUT of a GTO to go into a Full size poncho!! Bout time we gutted back ;) instead of just them goaters yanking 455s out of big 'uns and droppin them in.. (no offense fellow GTOers)

Do you have any contact info for this Jon Hardgrove fellow? Sounds like a good kit.

Everyone else PLEASE - i want any and all input! I wouldn't mind this thread being 10pages long by the time i'm all done with the project! If you've got an idea - a notion - or an inkling i wanna hear it!

Mike :)

oh yeah hate to get ahead of myself on the project as i'm far from worrying about the following but:
What's that black cable coming out of the accel. linkage on your pick there? It seems to go up and then down to something else (trans?) Is ita kickdown?

Thanks - mike

Mike,

Jon Hardgrove, The Carburetor Shop, 573/392-7378, 9-5 CST, Mon-Weds to talk to Jon. Friendly and knowledgable gentleman thats happy to help.

The cable you are referring to is for the aftermarket Audiovox cruise. Works just like your new car and available from summit for about $90.

Les

I agree with Wheelspin on this one. I just used Jon's kits on the tripower for my 65 Cat convertible (sorry no pics except with the big air cleaner on). He goes by 'carbking' on here. I think his phone number is in his profile. I used to do my own carbs until I got disabled. I had a guy who was a former Pontiac dealership mechanic in the late 60's and 70's do mine. He was the 'tri power' specialist at that dealership. I am tickled to death with the results. I too left mine 'as cleaned'. Unless you send them off to have them replated correctly, that is the best look. Please don't try one of the carburator paints. They look like crap.

As far as the manifold, you can clean it yourself, sandbast it, or whatever. But the easiest way I have found to get an intake manifold perfectly clean and rust free is to have it 'vatted'. Take it to an engine machine shop, and have them drop it in the cleaning vat. Most will only charge you $20 or so, and it will come out perfect. JMHO.

It came!
 

Alright it came. The shipper did an unbelievably great job packing it. That thing couldn't have hurt itself it had flown off the ups truck in the interstate!

2 things I want to start with-

A. Ordering the rebuild kits

B. Cleaning the carbs themselves (i have a clean manifold as mentioned earlier so i'm not in a hurry to clean up this manifold).


I'll call Jon on monday at the carbshop since as someone mentioned a few posts ago: he works mon-weds- for the rebuild kits. I sure hope they have a kit that will work for this center carb as the casting number is an odd one:
7019659 I've looked at it again and again and that's what it shows.

The end carbs are both 7029683

That center one's an oddball that doesn't appear on the carb shop's listings but I'll call and ask - anyone with info on that # feel free to post.




B- Cleaning
Cleaning the carbs will require disassembly. Any tricky parts you guys care to mention tips for or is it all pretty much unscrew this and pull that??

Is it something I almost certainly want to document well with pictures as I take it appart or is it something that is fairly easy to put back together (i'm not asking if it's 'easy' to rebiuld a carb, just if i should be weary of forgetting where something goes).

mike

tri-power tricks
 

The only "tricky" part of dealing with tri-pwrs is insuring that the OUTER carb's throttle bodies (the cast iron bottom piece with the shaft and butterflies) are air tight (sealed) or the engine idle will be unsteady and impossible to adjust due to the resulting vacuum leak.

Jon Hardgrove gave me a good idea; hold the carb bases up to the light and see if you can see light around the bores, if so, loosen the butterfly to shaft screws slightly and move the butterflies until you can no longer see light and then retightenthe screws. I would make this visual check, and NOT disturb them if they pass the light test. Vacuum leaks in the outer carbs and poorly adjusted linkage are the primary reasons that many enthusiasts shy away from tri-powers as they think that they are diffucult to live with and to tune.

Les

Ok-
I figured I'd start at rear carb.

Pulled off and dissassembled all things cover related.
Did it all by the book (service manual ).

A few things I found I'd like to mention-

*It was lookin old and crusty in there (as expected?) but a steam cleaner I got removed most all grime from it. Gonna take a brush (got a set of three different types) and some brake cleaner and some carb cleaner (didn't know which would work better) to it later to get it clean as a whistle.

*The pump plunger is pretty raggedly looking. It seems to have suffered the most scale but not too worried as I of course planned on replace this.

*The float needle fitting was sorta crimped at the brass fuel end of it (see picture)

*The air horn (aka cover) is of a different (incorrect I believe) casting. The air horn has 7 screws, but the service manual indicates it should have 8. Upon removal of the air horn, I can see that the carburator body itself does have 8 screw holes as it should. Someone must have switched air horns on it sometime in the past! :-\
*This air horn is cracked in one area (see picture). Do you guys think it'd do ok with this crack or that I should order an air horn for it?? (Probably should after seeing as it's an 'incorrect' air horn for the setup.)


I have attached a number of pics. The first 2 are referenced in this post, the rest are just so you guys can see a few pics of what it looks like so i can get some opinions.

The 3rd pic is of the CENTER carb. Although I have NOT taken it appart yet, and this post is geared towards the rear end carb, I posted a pic of something of something that's got me a little worried. The area where the linkage should hook on to it is broken. I can turn it (and it turns freely) with pliers. Is this repairable / replacable? I'd assume so but wanted to be sure.

Looking towards you guys' opinions / thoughts / comments,
Mike

I finished the disassembly of the rear carb. I cleaned them up moderately well (would do further cleaning later when I'm sure of which parts won't be getting replaced).

Odds and ends I'd like to ask you guys (in addition to the questions in my last post):
**The "Pump Discharge Spring Retainer" hasn't come off on my carb. I'm not sure how to remove it. The manual says to just pull it up with a set of needle-nose pliers but with medium up force I can't seem to get it off. I could pull much harder but figured I'd ask you guys first before going to brute force. Do I have to twist it or just pull straight up or what?

**Of the two jets - one unscrewed easily. The other wasn't so kind. Screw driver destroyed it while trying to unscrew it!!! I'm assuming I should go ahead and (CAREFULLY) drill it out?

**On the Venturi Cluster- What are the guidelines to cleaning this? Can I use any solvents I want as with the rest of the carb or should I be extra careful with it. Can I use a wire brush on it, or stick to nylon brushes on this part? - Also, i've heard of people running very high guage (read -- small) wire through the various passages of a carb. I assume the venturi would be one of these places?

I wanted to double check because the book says "do not pass wires through calibrated jets or passages as they may enlarge orifices and seriously affect carburetor calibration.

With regards to wheelspin's earlier comments on throttle body light (and ultimately vacuum) leakage- On the end carb I'm working on now i can see some light coming through part of the bottom and top rims of the butterflies. I unscrewed the butterfly-to-shaft screws and tried to adjust but it was as if I had not removed the screws at all. Should the butterflies spinn freely around the shaft when screws are removed? I can't really picture quite how the screws keep them mounted and how it would be possible for them to be adjustable in this way.


I've attached a few pics of these afforementioned areas.

I wish I could change the title to indicate "warning: lots of Pics" or something. let me know if the pic sizes are too large for you guys so I can start using smaller ones.

Thanks again everyone!

I 'drilled' the stuck jet out using one of those fluted reverse screw tools.
Tip for anyone else who has a stipped jet to removed - don't use the extraction tools with your drill. The drill just has too much torque and spins too fast for that brass jet. Instead put it on a socket-accepting driver (like the screwdrivers with the ends so you can put on the baby sockets) That way you can push in with as much force as you need while sSLOWLy twisting that strippted jet out.

Also note- i got this spray called B-12 Chemtool Carb/choke cleaner. It works rather well at removing grime that brakekleen and my steam cleaner left behind. However use it outdoors (im an idiot and used it inside for a little bit... D'oh!

Keep it coming, but it would be nice if you could make your pictures about half that size...640x480 pixels is about right for us people who don't have giant monitors. :)

Thanks for the encouragement stuart! I'm glad thare are readers afterall ;)

Yeah I'll post 640x480 pics from now on.

You might find this helpfull. http://www.highperformancepontiac.com/tech/index5.html

Mike don't worry the b-12 (good stuff BTW) smell will go away in a year or two.

Or maybe after a year or two you just get used to it............

Thanks Carl - I definitely have that bookmarked for reference. They do an interesting job and it seems like a high percent of the work was done on the throttle body (both the blades and the shaft work).

Has anyone here ever done any shaft work? I pulled off the throttle flange today and cleaned it down. It seems ok but I'm trying to do this thing right and would like to know if it is recommended that one replace the shaft bushings.

Also - as indicated in the pics above - my throttle bores are slightly rusty. Scrubbing them down with a brush removes some but I'm assuming I should use a wheel cylinder hone to clean them up good. I've never honed before but don't think it should be that bad... what's the procedure and is there any danger of 'overdoing' a honing job to the point where I will serriously F up my throttle bores?? Thanks all (plenty of questions to answer in my last 4-5 posts ;) ) I appreciate the help.
mike

Mike,

Do NOT hone those throttle bores, just clean with a brush, Scotchbrite, and carb spray. Do not be concerned with antiseptic cleanliness or appearance with these internal areas. Clean the various assemblies BEFORE evaluating their condition and making extra work and expense for yourself. The original shafts are not bushed and don't require being bushed unless the throttle shafts are loose, which is usually only on the center carb, as the outer carbs only operate near or @ full throttle.

Only use solvent and air pressure to clean the small passages in the venturi clusters, per the service manual. Laquer thinner and Acetone may help remove the varnis/crud.

Removing the stuck pump discharge ball retainer requires pulling upward with needle-nose pliers and LIGHTLY twisting the pliers @ the same time.

Performing the throttle plate "light test" must be done on a cleaned unit as the crud prevents full closure. The throttle plates will move with some effort, once the securing screws are backed off. The plates are "pinched" in the shafts when the screws are tight, but when loose, they allow for a small amount of "wiggle" room.

Les

Les - you're a life saver! Thanks for all the helpful advice please don't stray too far from this thread!! :)

I did get the butterflies out of the throttle shaft last night. I looked closely and figured out how they were held in place.
I see your point on only bushing them if they are loose, mine were not loose upon removal, i cleaned them and will check again upon putting back together.

I'll let you all know how well i can close them when cleened.

cleaned out the bores with a tough metal brush and some solvents. It ended up a lot cleaner than it started.

Just can't adjust either butterfly to close up completely. I'm posting a pic of the best I could get it, as well as one showing my one of the bores as well as the butterfly on it.
-I definitely know this is not good enough of a seat to go on the car because air will definitely leak through those huge gaps i just wanted to post how far I got with it so far.

Note that the butterfly's edge has a tiny kink or two.. (see the first of 2 pics posted w/this msg). think this could be enough to keep it from closing or do you think I should just keep trying? I spent an hour on one today and while I admit I was only just getting the full hang of it, I'm not so sure that I could get it to fully close. Note that I certainly did remember to adjust the butterflies one valve at a time (so that the other valve wouldn't be a cause for not letting me get the 1st valve fully closed).

Keep trying? Invest in new butterflies? (50 bucks a pair :-/)

Thanks for the help all!
mike