Pontiac Historic Services
 

I looked up PHS today on the off chance they offered a different packet than they used to;

If my memory serves me, there used to be two ways to order packets;
One was the standard deal with all the paperwork mailed to you.
The second was a more expensive "rush" order where the order/build sheet was emailed to you, and the packet sent later.

If anyone here doesn't know, they were recently covered in (POCI's) Smoke Signals magazine;

The article said that all orders that have been made for the past couple(?) years have been manually scanned.
The article went on to encourage POCI members to order packets for their cars to ensure that the microfiche for their car would be scanned, and not lost to time.

I ordered one of their packets in the late 1990's for my car, and it was akin to Christmas time when that glorious packet arrived;
It had the document specific to my car, along with copies of ordering sheets, and much more - it even included a glossy 8x10"(?) black and white press release photo of my model car.

I went to their site today HERE and although they appear to have two different types of packets you can order, you might need to take a second glance because all is not as it used to be:

Now, don't get me wrong, they offer a great service to the hobby, but this is not a cheap service by any means, and at $95usd for he "regular" (email only) and $110usd for the "expedited" (again email only) service, am I the only person to think that this is a bit much?

If these are all email-only "packets" their overhead has been greatly reduced;

• no paper to buy
• no printers to purchase or maintain
• no mailer envelopes required
• no postage to be paid

Now I realize that this is how they make their money, and to some this information is quite valuable but at roughly a hundred dollars an order, surely the pricing shouldn't have any problem putting together a couple emails a day to make a comfortable living?

I would imagine that the microfiche is fairly organized by now, so looking up vehicles shouldn't be that hard.

I am sitting here wondering if the price on these email only "packets" is where it's at because people (like me) are less incline to order;
So the current price point is possibly hurting their number of orders...(?)
Maybe they are doing a juggling act of a price point vs the service so that orders still come in at a reasonable rate, and where they (Mattison's) don't need to find another job to make ends meet...
I would have thought that even mailed packets at roughly $100usd a pop should be a good money maker.

I write all this for two reasons;
1) I want word to get out that these documents are potentially dissappearing;
2) I had really hoped that I could have found a lower cost option which entails only the scanned vehicle document be emailed.

I have three vins I'd love to run, but none of these points of curiosity are nagging me enough to cough up $100usd (aprox $130 of my dollars) just for the fun of it...

:2cents:

Yeah, it's a lot for just an email. I was disappointed when I ordered it for my 77 Y82 I'm doing and discovered they no longer offer hard copies.

Obviously I can just print it out, but it's kinda strange how prices go up and we get less.

BINGO!!

He was given the microfiche;
Decades ago.

Jim probably did the bulk of the sorting a while back too.

His son has taken over the business, iirc Jim is no longer involved.

$110 is a bargain to me. I have some other GM/Mopar projects that I would love to have info like PHS offers.

Ok so $110 is a lot for most people w regular every day cars.
Especially if you just want to do a bunch of cars , to double check options see if they are original etc or even to find that needle in the haystack .

Many more people would likely order if it was less. BUT it’s the only game jn town. It’s basically a monopoly . AND it’s a valuable service for the right people. (Myself included in that)

I would bet that even the people w garden variety cars who complain about the $110 would be upset if it was no longer available.
So yes it’s a lot but I’m pretty happy it’s available to
Us at the same time.

GIVEN????? THAT IS ONE STORY. This is closer to the real story.

Years ago, when Pontiac announced it was closing its doors, a management decision said basically "everything goes into the dumpster".

So everything "went into the dumpster" I was told, but then Jim did a "Dumpster Dive" and took everything he could out of the dumpster and saved it.

I believe there was some legal opinions filed and the legal people said once it went into the dempster it was no longer GM property.

So Jim was able to save a bunch of Pontiac records but GM was not happy.

I assume the word went around GM, no more "dumpster diving", and the other OEMS followed suit.

A guy named Ran**zo, almost lost his job for climbing into a dumpster at MY work, BUT he was retrieving a part that should not have been thrown in the dumpster in the first place. A Security Guard saw him and tried to have him fired. Management said, "He should not have gone in the dumpster but he retrieved a critical parts that should not have been put in the dumpster in the first place." So Management saved his job.

Not sure what GM did to Jim, but either way the film and files were saved for Pontiac Enthusiasts.
If they fired him or cancelled his contract as a contract employee, he still did the Pontiac community a great service.

JMO

Tom V.

It’s worth the money if you need that information.

Playing with old cars has never been a cheap hobby. What difference does another hundred bucks make in comparison to the many thousands we’ve already spent on something we want but don’t really need? :)

What b-man said, for the money spent on my car, so far, the hundred bucks is like me springing for the large drink instead of the medium. If it were $50 you would still find someone complaining.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

People with other cars would love to be able to have factory documentation. Just ask any other car guys, especially other GM brand owners.

From what I understand, GM gets a portion of the money each time a phs report is produced.

Cost of everything has gone up.

I'm glad the information was saved. At least we have the option to get this documentation for our cars.

This is correct.

I don't know about that - unless it is the typical trademark/registration fee arrangement for using the Pontiac name or logo(s).

GM has no claim to the records - as a result of the lawsuit Tom mentioned.

I don't know that much sorting has been done, or can been done.

I have some pictures of the PHS offices and file cabinets and spent some time looking just now but could not come up with them quickly.

They are the old metal pull out type with rows and rows of microfiche. The also are filed by Invoice number, not by VIN, since the billing history cars were originally a financial document (not an engineering document, nor were they saved as a potential boon to future automotive historians).

Picture the basement of an old savings and loan, where the vault is crammed full of stuff and you have to turn sideways to get between the cabinets.

Something like that.

That's what makes the comprehensive list of '62/'63 Super Duty cars even more incredible. Fred Simmonds went through tens of thousands of individual records, one at a time, before/after work and during his lunch hour - for months - in order to create that list by hand.

K

Some notes from when we had this same discussion, nearly 10 years ago:

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...ht=pre-history

and over 10 years ago:

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...ht=pre-history

The threshold that flipped the switch at that time was $65.

K

Possibly as Jim has stepped down, the current folks operating the service are testing the waters to see at what point the number of inquiry's really drop off. Some people would pay thousands to have a PHS for a very valuable Pontiac. Most of us feel the $100.00 or so they currently charge is just about the go, no go point for the E-mail. Probably a smart business move to find that breaking point and then back off $5.00. Honestly, they can charge as much as they want . Where else are you going to get the info?

You can still copy or make new microfiche, as I’m still having to get soldiers records / information that way from the archives, but why not just digitize it? That way it is saved for posterity.

I just received my ‘packet’ and am happy I did while I could. I wanted to get this while it was still being offered. You never know, especially lately.
No surprises with the info I got, just like having the verification of what it actually is.
I did print everything out and it’s in the file.
Pricey? I think so as I was getting documentation for my ‘71 LeMans Sport convertible, 400 car.
Now it I was verifying a higher end car, then this service would be a bargain for verification.
Value or not, the fact that in our Pontiac hobby this info is available is pretty great. Other’s wish they could get this info affordably…..

If you are thinking of getting this, now might not be a bad time…. Price will probably go up some more soon…
Mike

A one man operation with millions of invoices.
According to what I read in the POCI magazine, the invoices must be done "One at a Time", however, inquiries since 2009 have been digitalized.

....

Keith, thanks for the refresher on the past info.

The note by Fred Simmons:

His initial introduction to the Pontiac records was through trying to find out information about his own car. He mentioned to one of the secretaries that he would like to know how his car was built and she said "oh, I can find that out". Sure enough, within a couple days she produced the invoice and option content (sort of a prehistoric "PHS" packet!). He asked her how she did that and she replied that the information still existed on property and that it was guarded by a financial person.

I actually had my 64 Pontiac GTO Pontiac Info at least 10 years before Jim did his Dumpster Diving.

And I did talk personally to the Pontiac Secretary (that probably was the one that Keith mentioned). A very nice lady and the info was extremely sharp AND ACCURATE.

That is why I have never bought the Info from Jim M. I just got it a different was years earlier.

I have spoken with John V about the info in my sheets.
I never saw the need to get a copy of the window sticker as it was gone after the BRASS HAT drove the car for a few months.

Thanks for clarifying the info, Keith.

Tom V

I guess it's not quite that bad -

This was when the office was located at "Shows and Shoots" in Madison Heights Michigan. It has moved since then.

K

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...1&d=1657932794